Here's a quote that basically sums up one of the major problems I've noticed since becoming a pastor.
The church has lost its ability to be a disciplined community because we're now, religiously, in a buyer's market. Christianity has to bill itself as very good for your self-realization, and that's killing us because we're not very good for your self-realization. We're good for your salvation, which is not the same thing.
-Stanley Hauerwas
In response to my preaching, I occasionally hear requests to make them more practical. More specifically, the question they want answered is: How can this gospel teaching improve my life? That is different from, how can I live in obedience to this truth of God? There's a huge difference, as Hauerwas points out, between the practical question of discipleship and the practical question about improving one's life, between discipleship and self-realization.
It seems that we've decided to view the gospel as a commodity or insight to serve us for our self-realization rather than see it as the very truth of God which demands we lose everything for it (discipleship). We should be an instrument for the gospel, not the the other way around.
Do you agree with the distinction between discipleship and self-realization?
Comments (24)
There is always practical ways to be obedient. Whenever I teach.preach I make sure to give a few practical things people can do to submit to our Father and his will that week.
I don't know if I want to hear a gospel message necessary to "improve" my life, but I do want to know practical ways of applying what I hear to "impact" my life and the lives of those around me.
Self Realization is part of the gospel in that our true self arises from death on the cross w/ Christ to the new man so indeed we need more of that as we need more teaching in living in the truth.
u said:
How can this gospel teaching improve my life? That is different from, how can I live in obedience to this truth of God?
What made the good news great was that it did improve someone's life. It was not about materialistic gain but about being made one with God. That's the only way to answer the second one because it's only by being one w/ God and God creating and working our new selves that we can obey him.
p
In America our biggest problem is not the need to escape the anger and wrath of God to come but rather how can I afford to fill my 2 SUV's with gas prices being so high.
As a preacher you must stay the course and give the "whole council" of God. Not what they want to hear or even what you feel like yapping about.
Grace and peace!
~Michael
how can one obey God (or, for that matter, do absolutely anything) with any real success, without understanding why one is there to begin with? self-realization is the foundation of any step to change your life.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Good question. Self-realization in the post refers to a final state. The proper comparison is between salvation and self-realization. Both are final states.
With that, Christian discipleship (focus on Christ and his call on our lives) stands in contrast to the pursuit of self-realization (focus on ourselves, whether temporal or spiritual).
The Christian accepts that some present day "self-realization" is needed in that we need to know some things about us, but not in terms of us having to actualize certain things. "Realization" can mean to gain new insight or to make happen, make real. Christians accept the former understanding. Primarily, it is extremely helpful that we "realize" we are sinful and are in need of salvation.
Also, we can do many things without knowing how or why it happens. Insight isn't needed to be a active agent in this world. Their is a passivity to life many times. It begs the question my friend likes to ask: "Can I really change my mind or does it change me?"@TheGreatBout@xanga - The only danger is legalism. I try to shape people's minds so that they can go and be disciples without rules. That they can learn to ask the right questions. It's not easy and possibly too idealistic. However, I still offer some practical words at times. It's just not a common feature of my preaching. I want us to think about God, not us.
@soy_esteban@xanga - Yeah... but if fear (even of legalism) drives you then that's not healthy. But I hear ya. You don't want to just say "do this" and leave it at that. If people aren't seeking there is a problem.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Self-realization is more of a Hindu tenet than a Christian one. The goal for the Christian, as Pope John Paul II correctly puts it, is to know God. Of course, as a by-product, in coming to know God, who is truth, we come to learn a lot about ourselves.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - No fear, just warning signs from the past. :)
@Pashe@xanga - What you say is entirely true, though I think what the OP was trying to articulate was the differences in motivation. Do you want to do good in order to improve your life? Or do you want to do good in order to please God (which will, in turn, make you more content with life). Both life improvement and glory to God will come from us living by His Will, the question is which are we striving for primarily?
See the difference?
"And the Kingdom - heaven - is within you. Whoever knows himself shall find; but when you know yourselves you will know that you are sons of the Father, the perfect one. You shall know yourselves ." -Oxyr. Papyr.
That's fun.
@soy_esteban@xanga -
"Also, we can do many things without knowing how or why it happens."
sure, but i don't consider that to be a very intelligent choice. i believe that nothing in life is truly worthwhile unless you know exactly who you are. i definitely focus on myself, because i don't see how i can improve anything else without improving myself first.
question:
whats so wrong about smoking weed? i know this isnt relevant but, where in the bible does it say its wrong to do so?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - The Christian way of discipleship is not too far off from what you state in your last line. We just attempt to begin with God. It is God who then tells us who we really are. Armed with that and his grace, we seek to become obedient. Christian discipleship takes a deep sense of self-awareness, an awareness of our talents and sins.
I have a question if you don't mind taking the time to answer it. When you just can't seem improve either yourself or a situation you're involved in, despite repeated attempts, what do you do? How do you describe that problem?@soy_esteban@xanga - *shrug* i just keep trying. after all, nothing happens overnight. if i screw up, i forgive myself and make a more conscious effort the next time. honestly, and at the risk of being egotistical, that doesn't happen often with me. changes only stick if you develop better habits, which can only come through small steps and repetition.
@talithakoum7@xanga - question:
whats so wrong about smoking weed? i know this isnt relevant but, where in the bible does it say its wrong to do so?
Drugging one's self is a form of self-indulgence. Judeo-Christianity holds the opposite: that self giving is the correct way of life for the human being.
That means helping others through service, through giving and the curbing of hedenist appetites.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - u think you could explain this to me a little more i understood the first part and it makes complete sense... Judeo-Christianity part kinda thru me off
@talithakoum7@xanga - Judeo-Christianity part kinda thru me off
Well the Jews and Christians believe that the activities of life center around prayer, fasting and charity.
Prayer is communication with God. Fasting is the curbing of worldly appetites in order that spiritual appetites may be satisfied. And charity is love for others and the worship of God.
Love for others may be expressed as giving of time and treasure, of nurturing and helping out.
"and that's killing us because we're not very good for your self-realization. We're good for your salvation, which is not the same thing."
"Man, know thyself." That's stated in the first book of the Bible last I looked. "Seek and ye shall find." Find what? The sock that always disappears in the dryer? I don't think so. Self-realization and salvation are necessarily the same thing.
@sheepthatsblack@xanga - Thanks, I see the difference but I agree w/ @TheSutraDude@xanga. I find the dichotomy disheartening. I feel like hurts the discussion but at the same time shows where certain segments of the church are. The problem is this dichotomy hurts the church from even discussing the point I brought up earlier.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - As usual I agree.They r the same thing. Salvation in my view is not freedom from hell but being loved by God and loving others. It's salvation from the self to love and to be loved.
p
@Pashe@xanga - Yes. I would call it growing out of the deluded self and into the enlightened self but same thing really. It's necessary to have had the deluded self though. On one hand, if everything was always perfect in one's life how could one possibly understand what someone with inner demons and struggles has to go through to get to overcome obstacles. One might say that delusion or sin is mother to empathy, love, and compassion. Another way of looking at it is to take a look at the lotus plant which needs a muddy pond in which to grow but blossoms above the mud. The lotus plant is also symbolic in another way. It is, at least as of about a decade ago, the only plant known to seed and flower at the same time, demonstrating the simultaneity of cause and effect but that's another story.
@Pashe@xanga - It's a fine line between speaking the truth about one entailing the other and turning the Gospel into a self-help guide for self-awareness. I certainly don't want to see the latter happening, but I agree with you that there is a place--and that place should be emphasized in the Church--for promoting self-realization.
P.S. I like your definition of Salvation, especially that last sentence.