I'm going to get straight to my question. Is it ever acceptable for a people to say, "Sorry, we just don't want that in our home/town/city/state/country"?
This is the question I have after reading
an article about how the people of Switzerland just voted to ban the building of minarets. A minaret is a tower usually attached to a mosque intended to provide Muslims a vantage point as to where the daily calls to prayer are coming from. Now, the Swiss voting public didn't ban mosques, just these towers. Many who voted to ban to minarets say they wanted to retain the architectural integrity of Switzerland. The article I read doesn't buy it, and the author gives away his final judgment on the people of Switzerland and their choice in the title, "
Bigotry wins in Switzerland."
Now, it may very well be that a good number of the Swiss people are bigots or racist, I'm not sure. But I'm not convinced that simply saying, "Not in my backyard," is inherently a bigoted response.
Here are some examples worth considering.
Many neighborhoods in the U.S. have rules as to what homeowners may or may not do to their homes. Growing up, my parents were not able to have one of those large TV antennas visible from the front yard. We were not allowed to paint the house certain colors. If we wanted a bright pink house, we would have to move somewhere else.
I know of one fast-growing city that implemented a law that states every new commercial building must have a specific type of local brick or stone as a major part of its construction. Also, buildings cannot be taller than two floors. The Holiday Inn fought to have three floors, but they were denied.
A Christian family decides not to watch The Simpsons (or any other TV program): "We decided that we do not want The Simpsons playing in our house. It doesn't represent who we are or, better yet, who we want to be."
Here's my question again: Is it ever acceptable for a people to say, "Sorry, we just don't want that in our home/town/city/state/country" or is it always fearful bigotry?
What is your response? Can people choose to avoid something they don't like, even if in might come across as discrimination against a particular religion? When does an action like this cross the line into bigotry?
Comments (37)
if it doesn't cause any harm, i don't think so. but you have to consider all the different types of harm things can cause, such as bringing down the value of the area. If something isn't widely accepted as nice-looking, people wont want to live by it.
I don't understand the Simpsons example? Is that meant to show an alternate response, people actually saying "well, I don't approve of this so not in my house but to each his own." As for the minarets, I just don't know. Minarets serve a practical purpose in predominately Muslim nations; that is where the call to prayer is called out from and the height allows the sound to travel further. It is akin to a raised church bell tower. It seems that the minarets have taken on meaning "radical Islam" to the Swiss, though they never served this purpose in the past and are used by Mosques representing all forms of Islam. In practice, the Mosques in Switzerland didn't even use the minarets for call to prayer anyway. I think people fear Islam. We need to remember this is a very young faith, even compared to Christianity, and Islam seems to be going through the period now that Christianity went through hundreds of years ago.
Every time a law is passed against something it is the nation (or the nations representatives) saying "we don't want that in our nation".
And Christians, for example (and as you pointed out), should (and are commanded to) say there are certain ideas and behaviors that they do not support, nor will they act upon.
So if you're trying to ask "is someone allowed to stand up for what they believe and have a moral backbone", then my answer is "yes".
If the majority of a nation happens to be composed of a certain "moral backbone", then that nation will obviously pass laws that reflect their beliefs.
America likes to jump on the "you can't judge" band-wagon, but then they judge anyone that has a different opinion other than "don't judge".
i don't know the intentions of the ban, so i can't comment on whether or not it's bigoted. but i think it's perfectly allowable to express discontent with what goes on in one's home/neighborhood/country.
i don't think it's ever appropriate to say it in regards to a nation as a whole, especially of our nation. our nation is not a Christian nation, and it never should be. when religion rules government, the crazies come out of the woodwork and become the leaders. it's a mess. i think religion and state should be entirely separate. and i am a Christian, washed clean by the blood of my Savior. if gay people want to marry, let them. if people want to smoke weed or gamble, let them. we, as a collection of Christians, do not run this nation, nor should we. we can do our best to keep what is immoral out of our literal backyards and out of our small communities, but as a whole the government of America does not cater to Christian whims. we had our fill of Christian nations in the middle ages, and look where it got us. we just need to do our own thing and when Jesus returns he will make for himself a true Christian nation, sans the bigotry and the corruption and the violence.
I think the Swiss are grasping at straws if they claim architectural integrity as an excuse. Minarets can be designed to resemble the area around them.
People can choose to 'look away' as it were if something is bothering them. In this case, I think the people were feeling threatened and came up with a way to make them feel more comfortableand act in accordance to their laws. If people are feeling threatened by something, it is in their nature to want to react against it whether the threat is real or not.
If it's just an annoyance look away.
I think that minarets are beautiful, and would not object to them being built in my area. I used to live across the road from a Daoist temple and it never made me change my religion, nor did it influence my children to do so, even though we greatly admired the architecture.
Switzerland might have stirred the pot by saying they want to preserve the architectural integrity, but maybe not. How tall are their tallest buildings, typically and would the minarets be out of line with that height? If the writer of the article already showed his bias in the title of the article, I would be inclined to think we have only heard his biased spin on the story.
It's okay to say "Not in my backyard," if there are sound reasons to do so, such as integrity, height ordinances, council/district bylaws, etc.
GO SWISS!!
A culture must preserve itself or it will be swept away. Islam has been trying to dissolve the West for 1300 years.
The architectual integrity is a pretense. That said, I suspect that they are feeling the pressure given by unbridled immigration of immigrants who are hostile the dominant culture and certainly not willing to acquiesce. Islam is, after all, as political and cultural as it is religious. They may feel threatened on a very basic level (and this is the tolerant western Europe, after all).
@LoBornlyte@xanga - That is the same excuse China uses for some of its more heavy-handed tactics.
Though if you don't want your culture to change I suppose there is nothing wrong with fighting to protect it.
Avoiding things as a group that we don't like? Hmnnn...we do that all the time. Many cities have bans against businesses that have topless dancing, or nude dancing. Many have bans against shops that sell pornography. There are even cities and counties that you cannot buy or sell alcohol. Neighborhoods enact covenants to prevent behaviors (pink houses, motorhomes parked in front of your house, no dish antennas, etc) all the time. Not in my backyard. Don't like it? Move.
Nationally, we have a real aversion to adult/child sex. Other countries (Thailand comes to mind) have a much lower age of "adulthood". Many countries have relaxed views on nudism, topless beaches, etc. Let some young mom whip out a boob to feed her kid in public in the U.S., people have hissy fits.
People fear Islam? Darn right they do. It's a radical fanaticist religion that encourages death to the "infidels", preaches murdering other people by blowing up yourself, forces women to live like dogs, preaches ignorance, etc. Oh, the majority don't believe this, they are a peacful people. Yeah, right. Where are they? Why do you not hear them as a group on the evening news denouncing such activities? Where are the leaders and "Imams" decrying such behaviors? No, you hear the leaders praising the Hasan's of the world, holding them up as martyrs, shining examples of what Islamists ought to be.
I wouldn't want the minarets around either. Not because of their architectural impact (actually they are beautiful) but becasue of what they represent. A radical, hate-filled religion that spouts death, defiance, abuse, sexism, ignorance, destruction, blind obedience to the Koran. Turn and face Mecca five times a day and pray or die. Woman, keep your head and body covered, even your eyes, lest you cause me to sin by looking at you. If I sin, then it's your fault, and you must be caned, or die. What kind of nonsense is that? Yet the western religions, in the name of religious diversity or tolerance, turn a blind eye to this crap and refuse to call it what it is, confront it, and tell them to get the hell out. Not in my backyard, in my town, in my county, in my country. You want to practice such repressive crap, go to some mideast country and do it there. Far as I am concerned, they ought to close the Islamic "Schools" they have opened in the U.S., any of them that teach the hate and death and fanatical thinking they are famous for. We have a constitution and a way of life to protect, a culture that is constantly being hammered and assaulted and torn apart. That ragged old flag is looking pretty tough these days, I am wondering if it will hold together or not. Girls, go find your burkas....
I don't get it. If you don't want Islam in your country, just go all the way and outlaw it, don't ask them to hide their presence from the skyline. Otherwise, let them be free to practice their faith, minarets and all. Denying religious freedoms for others in a country is not anything like choosing what you will watch on TV.
Remember that those towers are there to put speakers in them, so that every 4 hours or so, an islamic prayer can be sent to the land, so that all hearing it,will be able to bow themselves towards mekka and pray.
Those towers make a lot of noise, and are not part of the swiss culture.
It's just as much as when a relatively new culture would enter your city, and decides to do something which does not benefit you in any positive way at all, but only causes trouble.
Suppose some culture all of a sudden buys a plot of land in the middle of downtown NY Manhattan, destroys the house on it, and makes a public pool for nude people, overflowing the poolwater onto the street. Not only do they do that, but now suppose they only build a fence around it, so that all can see whatever happens there!
The problem is not that they build a pool, not even a pool for nude people.
The problem is that the waters of the pool overflow onto the sidewalk, into the gutter, and there are no walls to protect outside people from seeing what happens inside.
Then lastly, a pool for nudes is not something inherited in NY culture!
I think it would accurately describe in a similar way how ilsam tries to infiltrate a nation, and then decides what goes and what does not!
@Ork58@xanga - People fear Islam? Darn right they do. It's
a radical fanaticist religion that encourages death to the "infidels",
preaches murdering other people by blowing up yourself, forces women to
live like dogs, preaches ignorance, etc. Oh, the majority don't believe this, they are a peaceful people. Yeah, right. Where are they?
I'm so sorry that you live in some desolate, segregated, secluded corner of the the world, but peaceful muslims are everywhere. I encounter them on a daily basis. Not one, not two, but entire neighborhoods. Thousands of families. They are seriously all over our country.
At least try and come on out from under your rock before you attempt to make observations about a faith you have not been exposed to ever.
Here's a question for you...how often do you personally encounter and witness radical fanatic Muslims that encourage suicide bombing and abuse of women? (Fox news does not count. Assuming that everyone from somewhere around the middle east is a fanatical suicide bomber doesn't count either).
it's the intentions behind this that make it bigoted. and some of these comments reaaaally make it apparent.
1. there are only 4 mosques in switzerland that have minarets. out of respect for the neighbors, none of them broadcast the call to prayer. there are no noise concerns involved in this.
2. there have applications submitted for perhaps 2 other mosques to carry minarets in the last 5 years in switzerland. this wasn't some fast-spreading "minarets are popping up everywhere" phenomenon that needed to be blocked.
3. why would you put something regarding religious freedom up to a popular vote? imagine where we'd be if the government in this country hadn't stepped up regarding civil rights.
4. and more importantly, if you're going to put it up to a popular vote, then why would a party distribute images like the following as propaganda? http://novimi.xanga.com/717393469/oh-come-on-switzerland--lame/ a woman covered in black with minarets sticking up thru the swiss flag like missiles? white sheep kicking out the - in this case, literal - black sheep from swiss soil? yes, this isn't bigoted or hateful at all.
honestly, this is more a shame than anything to get angry over. muslims pray 5 times a day and most don't even pray at a mosque. it's just sad that fear-mongering worked to the extent to get people to ban the islamic equivalent of a church bell tower.
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@LoBornlyte@xanga - @Ork58@xanga - @ProDigit - i'm calling you three out on your ignorance. please educate yourselves. i'm willing to spend lots of time discussing things with you, but only if you're actually willing to learn something. but seriously, you're wasting the world's time with that attitude.
@novimi@xanga - wow. Those images are some of the most ridiculous displays of ignorance I've seen in a while.
@subSacred@xanga - You're absolutely right ...Your intentions to help ignorant bimbos is good, but I don't think you'll have any success :( People on xanga go crazy ...especially because no one knows who it REALLY IS behind the username. But you're absolutely right about what you say, set them in their place!
@novimi@xanga - Oh my God ... Thanks for bringing that to my attention. four mosques? And they wanna make a ban ... I think if that's concrete news then that just speaks for itself. It's obviously racism in its most hidden form.
@ProDigit - Why don't you learn how to spell Islam correctly first? And it's not "mekka" It's Mecca (in the West) and Makkah (in the East). And that's probably the worst analogy I've ever heard. I'm not even gonna comment on the stupidity of your comment & your analogy. But lemme give you one a little closer to your own's -- the child in your profile picture...His smile, or lack thereof, is a little intimidating and reminds me of one of the older boys in Kentucky. The one who used to get annoyed with the darker kids in town and when was 16 decided to join one of the gangs in town. They wore these white sheets and pointy white hats, to intimidate people with fear, sometimes with pillows slips over their head. The boy carried around this flag with the Hindu symbol red Swastika on it with the rest of his friends and covered their faces with white material also. They went around doing horrendous crimes, shouting "White Pride!" and burned the cross. I don't know what happened to him, I hope he stopped doing these hate crimes ... But his smile was just like that little brown-haired boy with the mushroom cut :)
@Ork58@xanga - I'm not sure on how much you know about Islam. But please, pick a book up that's not written by a racist 5 year old ( I don't think there's any ) and get some real knowledge in your head. You, like the rest of many ignorant bimbos, have lacked in "researching" the right thing. You've only read, heard, listened and understood what you wanted to. What your "leaders" have shown you and you've supported. So please ... understand what Islam truly, truly is. And maybe you'll be completely flabbergasted with the amount of infinite knowledge it supplies you with. Please, for the sake of yourself and others who you might corrupt with your false knowledge that you've solely gotten from the media, read some reliable sources. See what Islam really is, because you don't want me to start talking about what Christianity really is -- based on theology, science and scriptures (that aren't even relevant and original anymore) -- but I have respect for it, because the Qur'an teaches respect and teaches you more about Christianity and Judaism than their Bibles and Torahs could. Because the Holy Qur'an is written by the same divine source who wrote the original texts of the Torah and Bible -- the ONE AND ONLY GOD.
So ork ... do something useful with your life and understand WHY the Qur'an says for women to cover themselves, why praying 5 times a day teaches a person discipline and what suicide and killing people really means in islam. And maybe the U.S. should get rid of the "catholic schools" that teach NOTHING different from the public and those in public schools know more about their religion than the ones who went to catholic schools and don't have a dozen number of whores that come out of their "religious" classes. But no, that would be stupid and that's not America. We're not gonna let stupid people represent a religion regardless of what we see. Maybe if you followed the same concept - you'd be JUST A LITTLE LESS HATEFUL.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Ugh. You again ... I'm not surprised to see your hideous comments getting attacked and oozing with nothing but hate. I thought you would've changed the history book that mom wrote for you since the last time we spoke. Dissolving for 1300 years ? Hmmm ... I guess you REALLY ENJOY that edition.
@OOMPAdefiined@xanga - I thought you would've changed the history book that mom wrote for you since the last time we spoke. Dissolving for 1300 years ?
Actually what I cite is true history. The Islamic Jihad swept out of Arabia in the 7th century and conquered what were formerly Roman provinces in North Africa, Asia Minor and Palestine. Constantinople was finally conquered in 1453. The Muslim conquerors changed the name to Istanbul.
The Spanish fought 770 years to rid their land of the Islamic scourge. They are the only nation in history to free themselves of Islamic tyranny. Charles Martel of France stopped the Islamic advance into Europe cold, at the Battle of Tours circa 730AD.
Europeans began the era of Exploration (Columbus, Vasco da Gama et al) in search of sea routes to the Orient because the Muslims controlled all the land routes.
All of this is verifiable history.
Instead of condemning me, have you bothered to condemn actual Muslim terrorists who have slaughtered scores of innocents over the last week?
@novimi@xanga - I beg your pardon, but the Swiss have a distinct culture. If they decide that 1 minaret is too many then so be it.
Muslim contact with the West has been violent since the Islamic Jihad swept out of Arabia in the 7th Century and conquered anything it could get its hands on.
Swiss courage in defending their culture is refreshing in this era of political correctness.
@snarkius@xanga - That is the same excuse China uses for some of its more heavy-handed tactics.
That simply is not the case at all. China makes zero excuses for its behavior. That's one reason I admire China so much.
@Ork58@xanga - you'd probably find it interesting, then, that much of Islamic culture as we know it (in particular, the covering of women's faces) was something Muslims learned after coming into contact with the Byzantines... a *drumroll* Christian culture.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - you'd probably find it interesting, then, that much of Islamic culture as we know it (in particular, the covering of women's faces) was something Muslims learned after coming into contact with the Byzantines... a *drumroll* Christian culture.
Islam is its own culture. If there was ever a culture that did not adapt to its surroundings it's Islam. Islam makes everyone else adapt to it.
@subSacred@xanga - @novimi@xanga - Well said. It's sort of scary what some other people say.
I guess from a U.S. political, historical perspective of government, it's not just about about democracy, but protecting the rights of the minority and preventing majority tyranny. A country may protect its culture, but the fact that there are only several minarets, I believe, is strong proof of its distortion and exaggeration of the threat on Swiss culture and reality. Fear is a powerful thing, but not just fear itself, but our perception of fear that may not reflect reality.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Actually, there are a few other countries to have overthrown their Islamic overlords: Greece, some other Eastern European countries, and India. The list, however, is short. Islam does seem to dissolve the civilizations they take over.
@OOMPAdefiined@xanga - Well, talk about painting with a broad brush. Catholic girls are whores, and the public school kids know more about Catholicism than the Parochial school kids do, eh? Ask any non-Catholic kid what a catechism is, they'd probably say it was a tunnel under a pyramid.
And do I know what Islam truly is? Yes, I have read the Qu'ran several times. I haven't studied it, because I study the Bible and believe in what it teaches. The Bible teaches you to convince unbelievers in the Good News, not kill them if they don't listen. Let's see, which group hijacked a ship and killed a wheelchair bound man and threw him overboard before he was dead? The Boy Scouts? The Wednesday afternoon Quilt Club? or a group of 30 something year old middle eastern Islamic fundamentalists? Or what about blowing a hole in the side of a U.S. Ship that was escorting another into port? Was that group the Girl Scouts? The Tuesday Night Choir? Or even the Hells Angels? Nope, a group of 30 something year old middle eastern Islamic fundamentalists. And what about the group that blew up the World Trade Center with hijacked airplanes, turning them into instant crematoriums? Lets see, could it be the Marching Band? The Beatles? The Kiwanis? Nope, once again, a group of 30 something year old middle eastern Islamic fundamentalists.
And for treatment of women, why, yes, all we have to do is look at Iran and Iraq to see how wonderfully progressive Islamists are in their treatment of women. Highly educated business owners, lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, etc. Able to come and go as they please, not being fearful of being accused of causing someone to sin by revealing any skin. Oh, Allah! Look! She is showing her, her....elbow. OMG, she should be caned! She is an infidel! And her teenage daughter, she was actually seen...reading! How horrible! How corrupt! Why, we'll soon lose control, and the women will be wearing jeans and boots, not covering their heads, speaking to men and each other, why, we can't have that! We will turn into the decadent Western Civilization with ridiculous things like womens right to vote, to walk about freely, to decide for themselves their level of education, occupation, activites! How horrible! Yes, Islam is wonderful, it's all about change, remember, oh yes, we can! yes, we can!
You want to take potshots at Christianity? Go ahead. Show me any place on the planet that Christianity is anywhere near as controlling and oppressive as Islam. And I don't mean in the middle ages. And don't give me the crap about how it is only fringe Islamic extremists that do this stuff. Where is the majority of non-violent, peace loving, Allah fearing Islamics, then? Why do we never hear from them? Why do their leaders not speak out? You haven't got an answer because there is no answer. They are quietly complicit with the extremists. America has withstood over 200 years of attacks and influence from outsiders. Now the outsiders have infiltrated and are trying to overthrow us from within. We are facing our largest and most aggressive battle yet. We need to be less tolerant, not moreso. That has just made us a doormat. We need to stand up for our values and beliefs, not water them down. Those who don't agree, seek life elsewhere. Hell, I'll buy you a one-way ticket out of the country anywhere on the planet. Pack your shit and git.
And by the way, not a good idea to take a potshot at LoBornlyte. She'll rip you apart with your own knowledge and cram it up your nose.