In his course on the philosophy of death, Shelly Kagan makes the argument that even though death is bad, the converse is not necessarily true. To live forever without death, according to Kagan, would itself be bad.
Of course, as it is, if we lived without dying but continued to deteriorate physically and mentally, living forever would be torture. That doesn't require argument. But Kagan says that even if we feel free to construct whatever form of immortality seems best to us, we will end up with something that, upon reflection, would be a curse. The basic problem with any form of immortality is that "we simply aren't taking into account how long eternity is. It's not just many years, not just hundreds of years, or thousands, or even millions of millions of years. It is literally forever."
Within a billion years, Kagan insists, everything loses what is captivating or interesting about it. I may love Chinese food, but eventually I will tire of it. I may love sunsets, but I can only see so many before sunsets I am simply disinterested. Okay, I have climbed Mt. Everest, and every other peak. What now?
What is bad about death isn't an inherent badness, Kagan claims, but a specific badness. Death is bad only when it comes at the wrong time.
If Kagan is right, two things follow. One is that death in come concrete instances would be a good thing, thus arguing strongly for assisted suicide. The second is a strong critique of the concept of an eternal afterlife. If immortality is not a good thing, why look forward to heaven?
What do you think? Would an unending life eventually run out of goods and become tedious? Is death inherently bad, or only sometimes bad? Is heaven something to look forward to?
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Comments (19)
Without God, immortality is Hell. Literally.
With God, immortality is a neverending quest to know the most enthralling, delightful Lover in the universe. The joy can't be comprehended. It does, however, require death of the physical body and sin nature. If we don't die, we can't live. In that sense, Kagan's right. To live forever just like we are would be horrendous. But to live forever with God is overwhelming to even imagine. It's something I could meditate on for years and never finish.
Interestingly, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, death was originally called the Gift of Men because it was considered better than not dying. Of course, Tolkien's warriors went to the afterlife.
No human understanding of the afterlife can ever even touch the amazing things in store for Christians when we break through the dark glass and see face to face. There are no words, no concepts, and no wonder adequate to it. We can barely hint at it, but we can't grasp it. That's one reason I believe experiences with God are so crucial now. The euphoria, joy, deep peace, and wonder of His presence give us a taste of what we're looking forward to. There's nothing more amazing to think about. I can't wait.
Chesterton advanced the case (notably in Manalive) that our loss of delight and wonder in the little things in life-- all babies have it-- is not due to our progressive increase in familiarity but to our progressive loss of innocence.
Of course, as @Pickwick12@xanga points out, heaven is only one of the proposed options for an eternal afterlife; combining eternity with tedium and loss of innocence certainly doesn't sound all that desirable.
I agree that immortality on earth would be hell. Even as a child I never understood why in movies and stories (and in history), so many villains sought immortality. Even to have eternal youth would be a curse. To never change as everything changes around you is horrible. Take for example (though not directly related), the character of Claudia in Interview With a Vampire - she was made a vampire as a child and resented the fact that she would never grow up.
The thing that makes heaven, heaven, is that eternal life would be with God.
In a fallen state? Yes, eternal life would suck. Notice that God doesn't call it a curse in Genesis when he speaks to Adam and Even (only the serpent). When He casts them out, Perhaps it was an act of mercy lest they eat from the Tree of Life and live forever in a fallen state.
IMMORALITY IS NOT A CURSE.....ITS A NECESSARY EVIL
YOU NEED THE BAD IN LIFE...ALL OF IT....
IF YOU DIDNT HAVE THE BAD, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHEN ITS GOOD?
HUMANS LEARN BY CONTRAST....
I LIVE MY LIFE IN HI-CONTRAST....NAMASTE
I think it's short-sighted to say that an infinite life would become tedious and boring, for when we grow intellectually, we find new things to appreciate, and growing old will typically induce growing intellectually, especially if we were to advance our life spans by defeating deterioration of the brain.
However still, the entire concept of an entitled afterlife pretty much perplexes me when I hear that people actually want it...believing in immortality is denying your own mortality - very unphilosophical and dishonest way to personally accept death.
Wouldn't it depend upon what physical age you were stuck at? If I were 10 forever.....no; 110........no thanks; but there are some ages........................ :)
Within a billion years, Kagan insists, everything loses what is captivating or interesting about it.
If you're into eating Twinkies, sure.
But what if you are into doing good, learning, developing virtue?
Eternity sounds like heaven to me!
eternity to help, learn, invent, explore. Eternity to discover God.
I think it's a ridiculous argument from
Kagan. How can he know what it's like in a billion years or whether
it's good or bad, since he's never experienced it? And he has no idea
what being in the presence of God would be like or what heaven is like.
And since we would have eternal life, I think our perception of time
would be completely different and not even comprehensible to us right
now.
I tend to agree only I think when dealing with infinite time there could be no measurement of said time. I imagine it would more or less resemble continuous existence in a singular moment. If there is an eternal afterlife it would exist outside of space/time so trying to imagine what it would be like is impossible. But it is certainly not like living through billions of years.
If for some reason the afterlife is measured in time much like life on earth, then I agree with Kagan that forever is a terrifying concept no matter what it is filled with.
I do not think that death is bad although early death is tragic. Death is necessary. I think patients whose quality of life will only continue to degrade until finally agonizing death takes them should have the right to end their lives on their own terms.
I don't believe in the continued existence of consciousness after death in any case, but it is interesting to think about.
Time is a dimension just like any parameter of space. Let's say you have to walk 30 blocks to get somewhere. Just because you're on block 12 of your journey doesn't mean that block 1 seized to exist nor does it mean that the buildings on block 30 don't exist yet. It's our limited perception that only sees the block we're on and maybe one or two blocks ahead of us and behind us. Eternity transcends our normal perception of time and infinity doesn't go by the clock.
We began the march toward death the moment we were born. The fear our society has of death comes from misunderstanding both life and death and not seeing eternity beyond "believing" that the eternal exists or theorizing that it does. To know it exists is quite liberating.
It's so important to live our lives to the fullest, loving people and letting our friends know that we do. Death can come from any direction and at any moment but if we live a life without regrets there is no bad time to die. Our friends will know always that we loved them. In the movie "Hitch", Alex Hitchens says "Begin each day as if it were on purpose."
Life and death are like inhaling and exhaling and energy cannot be destroyed. Life is eternal. Sure I might feel sad when someone waves goodbye and disappears as her train pulls out of the station. That doesn't mean she no longer exists. Life is more than we take it to be. And just think, even if we remained in perfect health, if we "lived" forever this planet would have become too crowded already thousands of years ago. I'm sorry but NYC subways are crowded enough. Frankly I'm glad some former subway riders have passed away and someday a lucky person who actually gets a seat on the number 6 train can thank me for having died. I would have grabbed that seat.
"Would an unending life eventually run out of goods and become tedious?"
Philosophy has many important things to say to man, and so does Christianity. This blog is blurring man's current state here in the world with man's destiny in Heaven -- just because we know what finite life is like does not mean we know what is in store for us.
An unending life apart from God would quickly become tedious, but why project this conception into infinity? Are we afraid that God will not fulfill our needs?
People would just get bored of everything indeed, and in their boredom, try to see what happens if they would do bad, and see the results of it.
That's why God sent the flood of Noah,because the world got corrupt.
I am a firm believer once in heaven there is no more corruption, as we will take off this corrupted body, and enter an incorruptible one.
In heaven, things are different! God is eternally fascinating. If you look at creation, the way HE provided with the most basic needs for a man to live, look at his immume system, at how the brain works, at the complexness of even the smallest amoeba, look at all the grains of sand, and the blades of grass you can see in a large field, count the amount of waves on an ocean, look at the amount of stars in the universe, and it's size, look at the amount of atoms rotating in one cell, and multiply that by the amount of cells there are here on earth...
The answer is just 'astonishing', 'uncountable', even 'unfathomable'.
And know that God fathoms everything. He counted,and created from the smallest photon there is to find, to the largest structure we know like the universe and more.
When we'll go to the afterlife, and you don't believe in God, you will indeed be in an eternity of boredom. But the purpose of heaven is to LOVE God, and to learn to know Him.
God never bores. He is infinite complex, infinite different, infinite new, infinite glorious, infinite perfect!
And that is what we also will want to become. Not by force, but by love, and by fellowship with the Almighty God will we, puny tiny human beings gaze upon God's infinite greatness, and learn from it.
Not like a computer which can develop int's own sounds, or a skateboard where you have a few million possibilities. Where once you've been doing it for a few tens of years, you get bored out of it.
You can never get bored out of God, because He's infinitely good, lovely, wonderful, and perfect!
For an eternity we will learn and gaze upon that perfection, and unlike a new toy, or lots of money, we will NOT get tired of it!
Forever!
Eternity doesn't seem like it would be bad to me at all. You have to keep in mind that we're trying to understand eternity in our fallen state and within the context of time. You also must remember that at the resurrection of the dead we will be given new, immortal bodies, fit for eternity.
Of course eating Chinese food for eternity would eventually get old.......but not in a body that is specifically made for immortality.....
We need to remember that we are fallen....
Good Post!
-Tesia
@monobeam@xanga - Totally true! We can't project our understanding of eternity from an earthly standpoint onto a heavenly understanding.
I do think an unending life with eventually lose it's glamour and become tedious. I don't think that death is inherently bad though. The way that it comes to you and how it affects your loved ones is what makes people fearful...nobody wants to die by internal bleeding or being murdered. There are people who accept the passing of their life and look forward to what comes after, whatever they believe that to be. Honestly, if I were to just drop dead right now, it would be bad because I don't want that to happen; my life hasn't been fulfilled the way I want it to be. But I would have to accept my death because it was supposed to happen, you have to accept the things you can't control. There is a higher purpose for me having to drop dead right now.