There is a article on
Boundless.com called
Defending "The Cost of Delaying Marriage", which talks about different things that are negative about our generation choosing to wait for marriage. One of them was brought up by a friend who is a marriage and family counselor working on her masters degree. There are several ideas taken from her book which can be considered extremely controversial, such as that women are bored with men because they refuse to pursue a woman these days and that women should stop "glorifying" their single years as a chance to be closer to God because guys will be deterred from pursuing them.
The most controversial statement that is made in the book is this:
It's only since the advent of pharmaceutical birth control that humans even had the option of choosing marriage while remaining closed to the possibility -- and blessing -- of children. And it's only since people started writing their own wedding vows that we stopped including the part about promising to receive children and raise them to know God. The concept of whether or not we as couples should be practicing sex within marriage with birth control -- either for a small period of time or for life in order to avoid children -- is considered sinful and is very controversial. While there are many reasons given why a Christian woman can give to explain why she does not want to have kids, the question still remains, what does scripture say about it?
God orders us in the beginning to go forth and multiply and be fruitful, to take care of the grounds (in the garden), to labor for our food and shelter, and for women to have to have lots of pain in bearing Children while always wanting to control her husband but not being able to. These were basics of life.
In the New Testament, we fall on some more ideals of what marriage is supposed to look like when Paul tells us it's best to say single and celibate but, if one is "burning" with passion they should avoid the things that temps them and marry. This almost indicates that sex is the only reason to get married. He even goes on to say that those who do choose to marry will face many troubles in life and that he wishes to help them avoid that! This is, in the opinions of many, only Paul's personal view on the topic of marriage. That same area of scripture, however, also says a man must give up his desires for God and that he has been paid for with the blood of Christ; it also says that your life is not your own, and each man should stay where God puts him, going along with a life God has called them to.
The argument against the order of children in marriage is that this says nothing about having children and even says men shouldn't get married if they can stand not having sex.
The other concept is that marriage and sex are natural but children were a result of the fall. However, there are very differing opinions on the interpretation of "increased pain in child bearing" should be interpreted. Some believe that it "increased" means that it was already happening but without pain. Those who believe the opposite are saying that children are a result of sin and that sex is really all God desires for man in marriage, and kids are a curse that we as humans received as a result of our sin.
What is your view on the purpose of marriage and sexuality? Do we marry to be able to have an intimate relationship, to reproduce, or a combination of the two?
Comments (37)
"while always wanting to control her husband but not being able to"
pfft sounds like they need lessons from me
Marriage is for Gays. =)
@mooshpitmatt@xanga - aww <3 that warmed my heart
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - I do what i can.
@mooshpitmatt@xanga - Marriage is for gays? Thats odd, why would they want to marry someone of the opposite sex if their gay? Afterall... Thats what a marriage is.
@MC_Shann@xanga - you know im going to resist this so this thread doesnt get a flame war going. =)
This post is deadly! This post exemplifies the modern mind! Horrors!!
Ancient wisdom please. Here it is. Listen up all you who are defiled by modernity!
In His deepest mystery God is family. The Father, His Son, and the love that binds them, the Holy Spirit.
Man and woman are made in the image of God and through marriage are united into one flesh (see Genesis). And in the same love that binds the Father and the Son, the conjugal love between man and woman begets children.
This is family, the deepest mystery of God. He has made us so we can share in his deepest mystery.
This is what every man and woman must know. Their union into one flesh is at the foundation of Creation. And the family that results from their love is the image of God Himself.
Now isn't that just a tad more exciting then this dreary post?!
If you look at Genesis, Song of Solomon, the various places where Jesus talks about marriage, and Ephesians 5, marriage is about two becoming one. Part of that is sex. One result is kids, but the main point is to show the glory of Christ in His union with His bride, the church.
The 1 Corinthians passage spoken of has to be taken in the context Paul gives that the Corinthian church had people teaching that married people should get divorced to serve the Lord. So 1 Corinthians 7 is really Paul saying - it's fine if God's calling you to be single, go for it! But for the rest of you, get married - and don't you dare divorce because of it.
A loving Heavenly Father desires that a man and a woman live so unselfishly and love so completely that they become one with each other and one with Him. Part of that unselfishness, love, and oneness is gained by creating the bodies our Father uses for His spirit children. His greatest desire for us is that the Atonement of Jesus and the sealing power given to Peter may unite us as Eternal families to become part of the Family of God.
It is amusing how we're taught that it's better not to marry and serve the Lord, but if we do, we had better have as many children as physically possible!
I look at it the same was as anything else - its cause-and-effect. I don't run stop-signs to show my faith in God and to prove to Him that I have utter confidence in His plan for what He wants me to accomplish in life. I don't eat lots of candy under the belief that I'll only get fat if God wants me to...
@railfan@xanga - It is amusing how we're taught that it's better not to marry and serve the Lord, but if we do, we had better have as many children as physically possible!
I was never taught that. Maybe the people in your sect of Christianity were taught terrible things like that. And maybe that is why you are so cynical
I'm having trouble identifying the purpose behind this post. Was it a long way of asking "what is the purpose of marriage and sex"? Or were you just trying to provide two different arguments and hope a good discussion started?
I think the purpose is fairly strait forward- as listed procreation, closeness, and oneness were all parts of it. There is even an element of us being made in God's image included within Marriage.
Paul did not command for us not to get married; Paul was unmistakably stating that it is easier during a persecution such as they were receiving for a man not to be married and obligated to such orders; however, Paul still maintained that its better to satisfy the natural ordinances of the flesh in a way that is acceptable and pleasing to God than to burn with lust in our flesh and thus receive the due penalty.
Lets not make something relatively simple out of nothing.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Every group of Christians has its strengths and weaknesses. I try to take the strengths and leave the weaknesses, and I try not point fingers too quickly. I was referring to the post above and the book excerpts in it, not the terrible sect of Christianity you assumed I was raised in.
There's more to marriage than sex and children. It's a partnership. I don't want children, Christian or not but that doesn't mean my only other reason for wanting to marry my boyfriend is for sex. It's about wanting to be with that person for the rest of your life, committing to them and being there for them. It's about genuine love and respect. It's about sharing life's pain, laughter, and sorrows with another so that you don't go through it alone. It's about having someone know you do well, you know every intimate detail about eachother, things that no one else knows. It's about knowing you can always go home to that person after the worst day ever, and being able to smile anyways. I believe God's intention for marriage was always for more than sex and children. That is just extra.
"God orders us in the beginning to go forth and multiply and be fruitful"
If you're the first people on earth or the select few after a flood, yes. Otherwise, the command is not to you. Similarly, there is no command for us to part the Reed Sea.
"This is, in the opinions of many, only Paul's personal view on the topic of marriage."
This isn't solely the opinion of commentators though. In verse 6 Paul makes it clear that his desire for others to remain celibate like him is a concession and not a command. Even later in verse 12 he clarifies that he is speaking out of opinion by saying it is he and not Creator God who is giving the message.
The argument that children are a result of the fall seems strange to me. After all, children are blessings and not curses (Deuteronomy 7:14). The pain of childbirth is a curse but not children. Pain does not belong to the kingdom (Revelation 21:4) but children do (Matthew 19:14).
Justin (the Martyr) wrote "Either we marry for the sole purpose of bringing up children, or else we renounce marriage altogether and remain continent" (First apology 29).
Personally, I think marriage is an tool to reveal to us the relationship between Christ and the Church. It also helps to nurture family. Surely the sole purpose of marriage can not be to procreate because otherwise barren women would not be permitted to marry by biblical standards. So I think there are many reasons for marriage. To reveal the truth of the relationship between Creator and Creation, Christ and Church, to enter into a partnership to enhance the kingdom, to raise to children and more.
We are all in this together. We raise children as a Church and we support one another in brotherly/sisterly love at all times. We're the family of Creator God. Marriage and celibacy are both good. Both have their purposes.
Human relationships in general are ideally one of the ways in which God provides for our emotional needs. That's part of why the Church exists. To exhibit a love for one another, originating from the grace we have received, that is a witness to the world.
I think lots of people here have hit the nail on the head (@LoBornlyte@xanga - @presque_la@xanga - @TheGreatBout@xanga). Marriage is the most extreme of all human relationships, and through it we see how we can grow in Christ-likeness through its joys and challenges. In essence, our lives are to be... missional, not just through marriage, but all our relationships. We, through being in right relationship with God, show society how we have also been reconciled to one another and bridged the gap that exists between every individual, so that they too may be redeemed.
At least, that's the ideal :P
It's truly sad how much of religious thought cannot come to terms with reality. It is people with misplaced and perverted faith who believe getting married means letting go of faith. To those people I suggest you don't get out of bed in the morning lest you chance losing faith.
to me, marriage is nothing more than a public ritual used to declare that you plan to spend the rest of your life with a single person. Christians did not invent marriage. it was around for thousands of years before any Christian ever existed.
@mooshpitmatt@xanga - don't worry. the straights are just afraid that if the gays get married, they'll do a better job of staying together forever :) after all, a 50% divorce rate isn't hard to beat.
I beleive marriage is about more than sex and children. I believe marriage is a covenant you make with someone where you vow to love them, cherish them, care for them, and do what is best for them. Forever. And even if it means sacrificing some of your own goals and dreams. If marriage was just about popping out a dozen kids, then I would never have gotten married (my husband and I do not desire children.) And if marriage is all about sex, then I never would have gotten married. I've always thought that pure sex was a poor basis for marriage. Should sex be a major part of marriage? Absolutely. Should sex (or the need for children) be the major reason to marry? Um, no.
this book sounds revolting. thanks for pointing it out so i can avoid it like hell.
sigh... so i believe marriage as God intends... procreation and illustration... make babies and raise up generations of God honoring posterity as your heritage that leaves behind a legacy of glory to Christ and illustration... as in your marriage is paint a vivid and clear picture of Jesus' love for The Church...
the secondary issue of human sexuality as the Bible prescribes it- enjoy and delight in your spouse in the realm of servant lover... serve each other in all things and love each other through all things...
all that to say is this... when God set up marriage, in His goodness He knew man being alone isn't a good thing. Therefore, man needed help and thus God created a helper suitable for him and one that compliments and walks alongside him (Genesis 2). Notice how the woman was created from his rib... and not his head or feet which signifies something of drastic importance... it means she's his equal and his compliment... not his lord or his throw-rug (sadly that happens suffice to say)... and so Marriage was intended to honor God and populate the earth full of God-honoring kids. Sadly sin entered into the scheme and tore everything to peices... and now ppl are having sex... there's illegitimate kids w/o homes or parents to love and care for them... and hearts are bring broken one night stand at a time... and THAT is something God never intended... thankfully Jesus came and died to mend and make all things right and new... so that marriage could be what it was intended for in the first place...
which means the aforementioned book is nothing more than campfire starter for your neighborhood bonfire...
also, it should be stated concerning Paul's suggestion in 1Corinthians 7 that he wishes that all wouldn't marry... but it's better to marry than fall into sin of lust and adultery... Paul also did say that marriage isn't bad and that when a virgin marries, she doesn't sin... let's not forget the context of where and to whom this was written... it was written to the Corinthian church which was one jacked up church... dude sleeping w/ his mom, ppl getting drunk during Communion etc... so Paul addressed all their issues... and so yea, it's his suggestion, not his command... therefore suggesting marraige is bad is unBiblical... and thus anyone who states that and calls themselves a Christian really needs to repent because God instill marriage... who are we to say what is bad when God established it for good?!
This post started from a facebook chat about several people who read these quotes and got angry about the idea that they were being told they were being sinful by trying to:
1. use birth control to avoid kids and only be able to enjoy the sexuality and personal relationship with their spouse
2. avoid the curse of increased pain in child birth
This was the topic I was trying to discuss. Is it against the view of Godly marriage to marry and just says I don't want kids so I'll take birth control all my life to avoid it yet still enjoy the "perks" of being married (sex)?
The question is also about the attitude of some of these peoples reasoning for not wanting to have kids. "I am too selfish" or "It's too much of a hassle" "I just don't have time and am to busy" "I'd be a terrible parent" and "I don't feel called to have kids" are all excuses give as to why they don't wish to have kids, but they all reflect a spirit of stubbornness by refusing to accept that maybe the presence of such selfishness or inability to "find time" for parenting a child is not a quality God admires or wants in their lives. They are basically saying God doesn't have the right to change me through this particular avenue because I am comfortable where I am and will go out of my way to chemically change my natural make up to prevent God from being able to make me go down this road.
Enjoying sex within marriage as a Christian woman today without having to have kids by CHOOSING to be barren would be absolutely ridiculous to the Jewish culture back then. Yet we today seem to think it is a right we as individuals have in order to live our lives the way we choose to, as we discern God thinks it's okay to serve ourselves in life and not concern ourselves with children who would make everything we want to do stop and it would suddenly be all about them. This is why children have become a burden to our modern society. They have no value except to do things to get in our way, make our lives stop and revolve around them.
Even if it is an order to go forth and bear children and raise them to be the next Godly generation in Christ, to take birth control with the attitude of not wanting children is like saying, "I don't care. I want to be able to live my life as I want to, not as some Christian Bible says I should, in the opinion of some stupid Christians."
The concept is modern self serving individualism which has poluted the minds of women on earth today to the point where they insist on wanting to pursue a career instead of their God given role as child bearer.
They have adopted mans roll (& curse) of working for their wages and having to struggle to get by to supply their needs. This is just another way of being over your husband.
So, is marriage with no intent of having kids sinful? or is marriage designed for people to procreate AND have sex? If you take one out because you don't want it, will the concept of marriage fall apart?
I hear mention of gay marriage here, if marriage is supposed to be between a man and women, why? If you take the ability to conceive children out and say it's still alrighty then why are we telling gays they aren't allowed to be married. Sex is possible, thus it is still a valid marriage if GOd's only real intention for marriage was to be able to have sex. If it's all about sex (close physical relationship with someone you love), then what about those who marry and are really not all that into sex as a focus and end all to the idea of who God is (if marriage is truly an example of Christ's relationship to the church)? And what about those who are barren but not by choice? Why would the Scriptures be filled with mourning for them? Why do they need a special blessing of spiritual children in heaven?
Has birth control made our society sin against God? Is He upset with how we use our science or that we are people have found a way to completely get out of our punishment from the fall (not having kids thus no pain in childbirth?) or do you think he gave that curse and doesn't really care if we find a way around it?
please note, I am not advocating gay marriage, just bring up an argument that can be considered valid by some.