One of the most frustrating things about witnessing the ridiculous merger of American politics and American Christianity is not so much the theologically questionable nature of such a venture, but the sheer immaturity of it. Listening to someone like Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity attempt to reason from religious convictions to political stances is painful for anyone who understands the complexities inherent in either realm.
For this reason, it is always reassuring to recall politicians whose political-religious thinking is mature. Even where I disagree with him, Abraham Lincoln had this sort of deep maturity evident in his writings and speeches. It's undoubtable that his religious convictions informed his political stances. On the matter of conscientious objectors to the Civil War, Lincoln "felt that unless we recognized conscientious religious scruples, we could not expect the blessing of Heaven."
Probably the best example of Lincoln's mature thought is his second inaugural address, given just months before his assassination. After explaining the causes leading to the Civil War, which was still ongoing, Lincoln analyzed the war from his Christian theological perspective.
Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."
The maturity and humility of Lincoln's thought is impressive.
Even while he clearly believes his view is correct, he does not paint it in black-and-white terms. He observes that both sides pray to the same God, and that "the prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully." One can hardly imagine George W. Bush speaking this language.
Perhaps the best modern exemplar of this kind of political-religious maturity is our current President. Obama does not speak from the perspective of providential Christian theism as Lincoln did, but that is precisely the point. Providence is not the center of our nations' religio-political discourse anymore. Obama exemplifies the kind of thoughtful pluralism that can say that "
Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."
Regardless of how much you agree and/or disagree with Obama's political philosophy (and there is much for any thoughtful person to both agree and disagree with; no need to be a party hack), it is this sort of political-religious maturity that is allowing Obama to recast America's role in the world, especially our relationship with global Islam. But it is also this maturity and craft of speech that makes it so difficult for his viewpoints to be gelled into the talking points modern voters need in order to make judgments. It's sad to say, but a good number of Americans need to hear pundits define Obama, because they can't follow the nuances and subtlety of his speeches, especially his more important international ones.
Still, I don't doubt Obama would hold to these closing words from Lincoln's address.
With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.
What do you think? Do you agree that Lincoln and Obama exemplify a sort of political-religious maturity? If not, who does? Who do you feel exemplifies political-religious immaturity?
True 
Premium
Comments (43)
Obama is a hard core Marxist who is actively working to destroy America as it was founded. I don't believe it is appropriate to associate him with Abraham Lincoln who died to preserve America as it was founded.
Obama's spirituality comes from radical, racist preacher Jeremiah Wright. Wright believes America got what it deserved on 9/11.
"America's chickens are coming home to roost!" is how he eloquently put it.
This is hardly spiritual maturity.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - America's chickens ARE coming home to roost. The mighty and arrogant are and should always be brought back down. President Obama is attempting to bring some decency and humility back to America, it is not surprising that arrogant, greedy, fascist jingoists would attempt to destroy him.
121 views and only 2 comments? What the?
As much as one may or may not agree with his political decisions, I think that Obama does represent a spiritual maturity. He's not living in the delusion that America is populated only by Christians, as some people may think, but instead recognizes that other faiths, viewpoints, and ideals are present in America today. And instead of belittling anyone that's different, he makes an effort to accept them.
One of the things that I do like about Obama is that he does have complex views--to me, it shows that he has put considerable thought into every angle of an issue.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - Islamic terror takes place all over the world. So "America's chickens coming home to roost" is a statement of hatred towards one's own country.
Having a president who hates his own country like you also seem to, is deadly. Nothing can good can come of it.
Hatred is nihilistic and not indicative of spiritual maturity. So I continue to think that the Sir Nick's proposition that Obama is spiritually mature is a mistake.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - I have no hatred at all toward America or any other citizens of the planet. I do have a distaste for liars, arrogant fools, and those who commit the sin of thinking that somehow Christ should be associated with conservative politics.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - I have no hatred at all toward America or any other citizens of the planet.
Saying that America got what it deserved on 9/11 is a hateful statement. It also dishonors those who were needlessly murdered. No country, least of all the United States deserves to have it's citizens slaughtered.
Deliberately not condeming those who commit acts of wanton murder and then assigning blame to the place where the victims live is indeed hateful.
These are the views of Obama's spritual mentor Jeremiah Wright. They are views resulting from hatred. I reiterate that hatred is not spiritual maturity.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - You seem to have suddenly developed some sort of reading comprehension problem. Please show me exactly where I stated that "America got what it deserved on 9/11."
I will save you some time. I never said it. I would advise you learn how to properly debate and avoid putting words into my mouth in the future before I make you look like a bigger fool than you generally succeed in making yourself appear. Perhaps you would like to have your alter-ego, Lobornlyte, join the conversation, though?
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - Please show me exactly where I stated that "America got what it deserved on 9/11."
You said:
America's chickens ARE coming home to roost. The mighty and arrogant are and should always be brought back down.
Words mean things. You are saying that America got what it deserved. That's what chickens coming home to roost means. And the might and arrogant United States should always be brought down.
Very hateful, indeed.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Well, perhaps it did get what it deserves. I am saddened for the lives lost as they were innocent victims of national hubris. I don't recognize national borders. I think pride in something that is an accident of birth is ridiculous and ignorant. There is nothing that makes me, as an American, any better than anyone else. There is nothing that makes the tragedy of those lives lost on 9/11 any worse because it was not done with a smart bomb upon the orders of George W. Bush. Forgive me if I don't leap to the defense of a place that incinerated hundreds of thousands of people without a second though and call it's actions "heroic". But it's not hate. But shame.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - Well, perhaps it did get what it deserves.
That is an admission of hatred. Because as I stated earlier, Muslim terrorists commit terror all over the world. And no nation deserves to have its citizens murdered. But your feelings aside, my point here is that President Obama feels the same way you do.
We cannot have a President who hates his own country and doesn't feel that America is exceptional among nations. That makes it impossible for him to lead effectively since he will not do a good job of looking out for America's interests.
Returning to my point, this is not either political or spiritual maturity.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Whatever. I prefer to value the lives of all humans, not just those who happen to occupy the same piece of land that I do. If that makes me hateful to you, I am hardly going to concern myself with the opinions of a woman on the internet.
Lincoln certainly seems to show that kind of maturity. His words show that he is aware of the evil that was present during his presidency and that it relates to the Creator God. Obama is a smooth talker. I don't mean sly. I mean that he speaks well and in a way that exemplifies humility and equality.
Ann Coulter is definitely an example of political-spiritual-immaturity. I'd also put Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson and a few others in the mix. It's incredibly rare to find a political leader or famous commentator who is mature both spiritually and politically. IMO the more mature they are the more difficult they may be to find. I think humility tends to persuade people to not seek fame.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Obama's spirituality comes from radical, racist preacher Jeremiah Wright. Wright believes America got what it deserved on 9/11.
1.Obama and Wright are not the same person. It was a stupid move to not denounce Wright sooner, but that does not mean he shares all of Wright's radical beliefs.
2. Lincoln was racist...maybe just as racist as anyone else in that period of time, but he was still very racist.
3.America is not exempt from judgment. Although I personally don't believe that America got what it deserved on 9/11, I think that is a valid perspective.
Yes, I already know... I must be a freedom hating leftist baby killing family destroying commie.
@subSacred@xanga - 1. It was a stupid move to not denounce Wright sooner, but that does not mean he shares all of Wright's radical beliefs.
Obama hand picked Wright's church and spent 20 years there. That shows that Obama was conformed to Wright's hateful and racist beliefs.
2. Lincoln was racist...maybe just as racist as anyone else in that period of time, but he was still very racist.
There is nothing in Lincoln's writings or actions that is even remotely similar to Reverend's Wright's vitriol. Lincoln was a good, just and righteous man. If the time period was Lincoln's excuse for being racist, what is Reverend Wright's excuse?
3. Although I personally don't believe that America got what it deserved on 9/11, I think that is a valid perspective.
How can you think something is valid and not believe it? That is not logical. If something is valid, it is believable. Nearly 3000 people were murdered on 9/11. That is not a judgment on America, that is wanton slaughter, the same wanton slaughter that Islamic terrorists commit world wide. Is God using the Muslims as an instrument of his Judgement against the entire world?
Yes, I already know... I must be a freedom hating leftist baby killing family destroying commie.
I don't know, but you certainly make yourself sound that way.
I agree with you. I would add Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Glen Beck and of course Rush Limbaugh to the group Hannity and Coultier crowd. These people are constantly exposed to be factually incorrect.
Here is something else to consider. After the recent Fort Hood shooting many people have been calling for an end to political correctness saying that this incident would not have happened if we weren't so set against profiling. Actually the alleged shooter was profiled but two and two were not put together. The biggest reason however for political correctness does not stem from a fear of terrorists but from a fear of radical Christians within our own ranks. About a year ago Bachmann stated in no uncertain terms that the media should investigate members of Congress with the purpose of deciding who is pro-American and who is anti-American, basically calling for a McCarthy-like witch hunt. During her short stint as Governor of Alaska Palin pressured a librarian to destroy books that don't fit into Palin's view of the world. The librarian didn't cave in to the Palin's request. They, the others I mentioned and many like them have falsely accused Obama of being a Marxist, a communist, a Nazi, and anything else they can think of to cloud the issues we are facing. It is more because of people like them that we need to do everything possible to protect the rights of the individual.
it is this sort of political-religious maturity that is allowing Obama to recast America's role in the world, especially our relationship with global Islam.
George Bush liberated 50,000,000 innocent Muslims from brutal tyranny and made sure that 9/11 was not repeated.
Additionally, creating a functioning democracy out of Iraq was nothing less than miraculous!
If America is the liberator of the oppressed how is Obama going to recast that? I know, by abandoning our troops in Afganistan and leaving the downtrodden to face a bleek future of enslavement.
Yes, this is political and religious maturity writ large.
Listening to someone like Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity attempt to reason from religious convictions to political stances is painful for anyone who understands the complexities inherent in either realm.
But that's exactly what you are doing Sir Nick! Why can you, the leftist do it, while others who are not leftists not do it?
You're no better than the Bible thumping red neck you detest. You're mixing your brand of politics with your brand of religion.
And then you call it mature. This is the simple, unvarnished hypocrisy and elitism that the Left is so famous for.
I LOVE ANN COULTER!!
She's my idol and role model.
Anybody who thinks that complicated issues such as racism, health care, the economy, or foreign relations can be resolved with a buzzword-laden slogan or an appeal to a popular "expert" is by definition immature.
Anybody who forms their views on these issues based substantially on what they've heard in the mainstream media is by definition immature. (Fox News also counts as mainstream media, whatever they say.)
Anybody who comments on a political discussion on the Internet is... oh, darn.
...where did 9/11 and the terrorists get brought into this?
I agree with the point of the post, that Christians should be looking at current political issues with far more discernment than is typically the case. As to where to find the thoughtful voices that will help us to do this, that's a very tough question. Likewise it is hard to find political figures to admire on either side of the party divide. "Left" and "Right" both have serious issues for Christians.
Maturity is not equivical with eloquence and intelligence. I don't think that Obama was particular mature when he made comments about those in rural america clinging to god and guns or when he chose Wright a man who equates christianity with Marxism to be a spiritual leader. He also was incredibly rash when he said that he could no more disown Wright than his Grandmother and then disowned Wright two weeks later.
Also, Bush's foreign policy was not provinicial theism. Christopher Hitchens perhaps the best known political athiest in the world was also one of the stongest supporters of a strong military presence in Iraq. Granted Hitchens' political views are indeed motivated by an athiestic form of islamaphobia but nonetheless I think he would be and rightfully so incensed by the notion that Bush's foreign policy was informed by a christian provinicialism. You seem to be a smart person but I think you need to challenge your own world views more.
@fallingraindrop@xanga -
Obama hand picked Wright's church and spent 20 years there. That shows that Obama was conformed to Wright's
hateful and racist beliefs.
Show me a transcript of Wright consistently preaching such racist sermons over the past 20 years. No, you can't because you only know what the media and google tells you. Wright went overboard, and lost a lot of supporters.
There is nothing in Lincoln's writings or actions that is even remotely similar to Reverend's Wright's vitriol. Lincoln was a good, just and righteous man. If the time period was
Lincoln's excuse for being racist, what is Reverend Wright's excuse?
Like I said, Wright said awful things. Obama did not. Wright had no excuse. Wright did not exemplify political-religious maturity.
There were a few that did not follow the social norm of racism in Lincoln's time, and he chose to not join them. Racism is racism, he had no excuse.
Lincoln as president said racist things, not Lincoln's pastor.
Had Lincoln's pastor said the most despicable words known to man, that would not be the same as those words coming from Lincoln's mouth, heart
or mind.
How can you think something is valid and not believe it? That is not logical. If something is valid, it is
believable.
But if something is believable it does not mean I must believe it. I can see why people would believe it, I can see and understand the many reasons people have for believing something, I can decide that it is not impossible or ridiculous, but I may also conclude that their arguments don't line up quite enough for me to embrace it as truth. That's how.
It's silly to argue who is more spirtually mature. I don't like this
post because "spiritually mature" seems to be defined (both by the
author and by the commenters) as "agrees with my own political and
spiritual beliefs." The author (and some commentors) paint everyone on the right as "spiritually immature" while many commentors do the same with every figure on the left. This is silly. I feel as long as the person truly believes that what he is doing is right for the country as a whole, then I can at least respect them. Unfortunately, I feel that politicians like this are few and far between.
As much as I don't like it, I know spiritual beliefs will always enter into politics, but can we keep this to a minimum please? Not everyone believes in the same god(s), so why do we assume that we all do? What ever happened to separation of church and state? I quite like that principle...
@fallingraindrop@xanga - I seriously this comment was sarcasm until I finished it. Wanting to "spread the wealth around" does not automatically make someone a Marxist. I don't understand why redistribution of wealth to the rich is American, but redistribution of it to the poor is socialist/communist/Marxist. On your point about Reverend Wright, a person does not have to agree with every statement their preacher makes. As an example, there are many people who belong churches the believe homosexuality is a sin, yet they do not believe this themselves. People are capable of hearing opinions and deciding that they are wrong without blocking out the person entirely. I'm sure Reverend Wright didn't spew his racist remarks every day, in fact I've heard they were quite rare.
Also, I'm not sure why everyone seems so set on preserving the America that was founded. Cultures and times change, and we need to be willing to adapt to that. If you're saying that he's trying to get rid of democracy in our country, then I'd need some proof of that. But if we were preserving the America that was founded by our forefathers, then let's bring back slavery, the 3/5ths rule, ban interracial marriage, civil rights, and women's rights... You get my point. The past is not this magical place that everyone seems to think it is where everything was perfect. I'd much rather live today's society, floaws and all, than in the intolerant society of old.
Like I said, Wright said awful things. Obama did not. Wright had no excuse. Wright did not exemplify political-religious maturity.
There were a few that did not follow the social norm of racism in Lincoln's time, and he chose to not join them. Racism is racism, he had no excuse.
Lincoln as president said racist things, not Lincoln's pastor.
Had Lincoln's pastor said the most despicable words known to man, that would not be the same as those words coming from Lincoln's mouth, heart
or mind.
I don't think that Obama and Wright are the same, some of the comments by people opposed to Obama on this thread are dispicable and in most other conversations about Obama Wright would be out of place.
That said, I do think that if we are going to discuss whether or not Obama is a spiritually mature individual who he has chosen as his spiritual mentors and leaders is material.