Saturday, 21 November 2009
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Reflections on Sabbath
Hear this, you who trample on the needy and bring the poor of the land to an end, saying, "When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great and deal deceitfully with false balances, that we may buy the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals and sell the chaff of the wheat?" The LORD has sworn by the pride of Jacob:"Surely I will never forget any of their deeds. Shall not the land tremble on this account, and everyone mourn who dwells in it, and all of it rise like the Nile, and be tossed about and sink again, like the Nile of Egypt?" "And on that day," declares the Lord GOD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight."
-- Amos 8:4-9As I have mentioned before, I grew up in the Worldwide Church Of God. Because of this, I grew up going to church on Saturday, as it is their Sabbath. The above quoted passage is a section of scripture that someone I know in real life quoted to me, saying that it supports the Sabbath as being over. The argument as I understand it is that in this verse, God says that Israel has asked him when the Sabbath is over, and that in Verse 9 God responds to them saying that it will be over when He makes the sun go down at noon and darken the Earth in broad daylight. This having happened when Jesus died on the cross, so therefore the Sabbath is over.
Personally I don't buy it. I think it is a bit of a stretch. Personally, I think we are called as Christians to live a life of constant worship. We find our Sabbath rest, in Christ, and not in a particular day. Under the Sabbath, the Jews, could work six days a week, and then on Saturday go to the temple. As Christians, we are called to pray without ceasing. We are called to a higher standard, a life as a living sacrifice, not a life of once a week attendance at a service. We have a life of Sabbaths, not one day.
Have you ever heard that the Sabbath is over? Do you believe Sabbath is a certain day, or can it be any day?
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ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - Name: ProudToBeAChristianFruitc
- About Me: The name for this site was taken from a conversation where someone told me that all christians were crazy and were fruitcakes. I figured if he is correct then I am proud to be a christian fruitcake.
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Comments (55)
The Sabbath for Christians is Sunday, the day that Jesus resurrected from the dead. Jews, do not believe in Jesus so their Sabbath day is Saturday.
If you're a Christian who believes the Sabbath is Saturday than you have your wires crossed.
I don't place that much importance on a particular day being a day of worship. I'd like to think God doesn't care when you remember to worship him, just that you remembered. By nitpicking on when the Sabbath should be, I just feels like it tears Christians apart and gives them another reason to judge each other. That's not cool. :\
Short version (and possibly deceptive):
The Sabbath was ended when Jesus fulfilled the Law, but He inaugurated the unbloody sacrifice of Bread and Wine on the Eighth Day to prefigure His return, which was a major feature in Christian art and theology in the first centuries for the Christian day of worship. When He returns, all work, toil, and pain will cease.
The targets of the prophecy are those who deal wickedly. In the previous age, they micro-managed the Law so that they could do as they saw fit, but the Law prescribed death for even small infractions (e.g. picking up sticks on the Sabbath), so they had to wait. Not having in mind the things of God, they eagerly awaited the end of the Sabbath that they could make more money. When God ended the Old Covenant, and especially when He destroyed the Temple, He brought an end and judgment upon that lifestyle.
Similarly now people do the same thing with regard to the Eighth Day, the Christian Sabbath. Men still use religious gatherings for their advantage. They still eagerly wait for it to get finished that they may continue their dealings. When Christ returns next, He will put a permanent end to all of this. All Sabbaths will end, there will be no more, because there will be no need. It will be an eternal Sabbath. Since it was defined by segregating it off from the rest of the week, when this method of allocating time is gone, then inevitably so is the Sabbath. All will be at rest.
The worship services of the Early Church is what glued these two conceptions together and made them one. Unfortunately that would be very hard to explain, and I'm not going to attempt it in a comment box. This is a partial response, and it's the best I can give in the medium.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - I do believe that the Sabbath is Saturday. I just no longer recognize Saturday as the only legitimate day of worship. I believe that we need to worship God 7 days a week, we need to be a living sacrifice all the time, not just go to church one day a week.
Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed?
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - "I believe that we need to worship God 7 days a week, we need to be a living sacrifice all the time, not just go to church one day a week."
But God commanded us to observe the Sabbath (Genesis) so it doesn't make any difference what your personally feels are about the matter. If your personally feelings go against the commandments of God then they are disordered and sinful.
Daily worship of God is healthy and highly recommended, but the worship on the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments.
"Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed?"
Jesus resurrected on Sunday and the Apostles made a huge deal of it. That is in Scripture. What more do you need?
Does the Scripture say brush your teeth, or wipe your butt after you take a crap? There are many important things not in Scripture that are left to reason.
Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus on Sunday from the very beginning.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - I didn't ask for what you thought, I asked if you could prove it through the bible. The Bible talks about needing two or more witnesses to convict someone, that standard should be just fine for our dicussion.
I would like two or more verses that show that "the apostles made a huge deal of it" or that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Jesus resurrected on Sunday and the Apostles made a huge deal of it.. That is in Scripture. What more do you need?
But how does "the Apostles made a huge deal of it" translate to "the Sabbath was changed to Sunday"? That is not nearly as logical as wiping your butt after you take a crap. If the Sabbath day is a command we should be obeying, there has to be a much more solid reason for changing such a central part of how it is obeyed.
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - I may not have been addressed here but it is a great question to ask.
In order for me to answer your question: "Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed?", I would like to ask some clarifying questions please.
A. Is the question "Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed by God?" or is it "Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed by man?" Or even either or both?
B. When proving "through the Bible" are we to look at the actual people who are in Scripture, their lifestyle, their understanding, their copies of the Scriptures (the ones existing when they learned from their beloved Teacher/Shepherd Jesus the Christ) when answering this question?
C. Are we to also to read alongside the Biblical text other writings from Early Church Fathers and other people who profess a Christian faith since the days of approximately 70 to 90 AD?
I notice some answers given above. I also notice they lack any Scripture references and they may not have wanted to go into that much detail here.
Yet to answer these very claims given above, the understandings of the people writing and being written about need to be consulted in their understanding. Who are they? Jesus, Peter, John the Beloved, James the Righteous, Jude the brother of James and Jesus, Matthew, Luke, and Saul/Paul of Tarsus, and the writer of the letter to the Hebrews to name a majority. Their words are preserved in writing -- even in a very Hebraicly influenced use of the Greek language as the Law/Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy) was translated centuries before the birth of Jesus the Christ in the Septuagint by Jewish scholars.
We don't really have to go that deep into the language to get our answer. One can simply read a freely available English translation such as the ESV of the entire word of God to get an answer. The Jerusalem Bible, the NRSV, and the King James (NKJV also) can also be used. There is one requirement however that is necessary and that is to call upon the Spirit of the LORD and submit yourself to Him and ask Him to give you His Light to "open your eyes to the wonders of His teachings" as the King and Prophet of Israel David said in Psalm 119. Isaiah and Jeremiah spoke the words of the LORD and told of a new covenant relationship where men would no longer teach one another to "know" the LORD but that each man would know the LORD himself. Step out in your relationship that Abba has made for you and He through the shed blood via substitutionary death and resurrection of His beloved and unique Son, Jesus the Christ/the Messiah.
I will say this...the Bible does not forbid one from worshiping the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob on a particular day of the week. Was this LORD God the same Father and the One whom Jesus listened to and did His will?
I will provide a link to a message on YouTube which is under 10 minutes speaking very straight about the Sabbath and I see it exactly the same as my brother in Jesus the Christ and my friend Paul Sherbow sees it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anehi2-9a6w
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - "I would like two or more verses that show that "the apostles made a huge deal of it" or that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday."
I'm not going to do your homework for you. Look, read and learn for yourself.
I have little patience for heretics. Especially heretics who believe things that are so clearly stated in the Bible.
Also, I do not subscribe to the illogical doctrine of sola scriptura. The Bible is a result of Tradition. So to demand that all doctrine be contained within the Bible is error.
Moses had direct access to God. He taught his people decades before he wrote Scripture. This is also the case with the New Testament. Jesus and Apostles were teaching the Gospel decades before any New Testament Scripture was written.
You need to explain where it is written in Scripture, that the Gospel must be written in Scripture. You can't.
Therefore, your request that I prove what I say with Scripture is full of beans. What I said is the Gospel teaching of Jesus Christ according to his teachings.
@subSacred@xanga - "But how does "the Apostles made a huge deal of it" translate to "the Sabbath was changed to Sunday"?"
Because early Christians celebrated the Resurrection of Christ (the Mass) on Sunday, not Saturday.
Romans 14:5-6 says it all:
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God."
So in other words everyone is right.
@railfan@xanga - "So in other words everyone is right."
NO! There is only one right and one wrong. The Christian sabbath is on Sunday. PERIOD. That has been Christian practice for over 2 millienia.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - But Paul said all days are equal to the one who esteems them all as equal! I am certainly fine with and do worship on Sunday, but I don't think it's the only necessary day. Otherwise tradition becomes more important than the Bible. It's like the issue of eating meat offered to idols. It is not black and white, and up to personal conviction.
@koldodi@xanga - "A. Is the question "Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed by God?" or is it "Can you prove through the Bible that the Sabbath was changed by man?" Or even either or both? "
My answer to A: Since God is the supreme Judge and the only one with the power to send me to Hell, I will have to say that His thoughts are the only ones that count.
"B. When proving "through the Bible" are we to look at the actual people who are in Scripture, their lifestyle, their understanding, their copies of the Scriptures (the ones existing when they learned from their beloved Teacher/Shepherd Jesus the Christ) when answering this question?"
My answer to B: Yes, All i am looking for are verses from the Word of God (the Bible) that say that Christians are to worship on a particular day and that day can only be Saturday.
"C. Are we to also to read alongside the Biblical text other writings from Early Church Fathers and other people who profess a Christian faith since the days of approximately 70 to 90 AD?"
My answer to C: No offense to the church fathers, but I will have to refer you back to my answer for A.
@railfan@xanga - "Otherwise tradition becomes more important than the Bible."
Tradition IS more than the Bible. For the Bible came from Tradition. Traditions means "that which is passed down." The Bible is written Tradition. It was written so that it could be passed down.
But the last verse of the Gospel of Saint John clearly states that the life Jesus was impossible to commit to a book.
Therefore, the Bible does not contain the complete Revelation of Jesus.
People such as yourself, who believe in the erroneous and illogical doctrine of sola scriptura are cutting themselves off from the complete teachings of Jesus.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Just because it's been done for 2,000 years doesn't put it on par with Scripture. Sometimes, tradition contradicts the Bible, like in Col 2:16, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and
drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath."
Col 2:8 says "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."
If tradition really did supersede the Bible, where would we be then? What if it became our tradition to interpret verses differently, denying core tenants of Scripture? What if we decided that Jesus was making a pun to Peter in Matthew 16:18? Would that supersede the Bible?
@railfan@xanga - "Just because it's been done for 2,000 years doesn't put it on par with Scripture."
Yes it does. The New Testament Scripture wasn't compiled until after 380AD. That's almost 400 years after Christ.
The Gospel is more than the Bible, according to the Bible. You cannot refute that because it is written in Scripture.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - A fragment of the Gospel of John exists from AD 135, which is quite a bit earlier. I must also ask other questions. Tradition of who? Certain denominations have had the Sabbath on Saturday for their entire existence. The Roman Catholic church has had many traditions that have shifted over time, but the Bible hasn't shifted. And Jesus, in the Gospels, did warn the pharisees quite harshly about putting their traditions on par with the Old Testament. Mark 7:7-8 says "'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
@railfan@xanga - The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. Peter was the first pope. There is a line of 265 popes that trace their origin to Saint Peter.
The Apostles witnessed Christ after the Resurrection. From Saint Luke (the Road to Emmaus) we know that it was Christ who interpreted Scripture.
The practice of celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday goes back to the beginning of Christianity.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - But if Paul's command to esteem each day alike can be nullified, why can't Jesus' command to Peter be reinterpreted? And what happens when tradition changes? Does God's will change?
@railfan@xanga - "Mark 7:7-8 says "'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.""
That would be you. Martin Luther was a man who created entirely new doctrine. Calvin is a man who also created entirely new doctrine. Every Protestant minister is a descendant of a man who created doctrine in the tradition of men.
So it is Protestants who hold to the traditions of men.
Neither Moses nor Jesus created the traditions of men. They taught Tradition which is the mind of God.
@railfan@xanga - "But if Paul's command to esteem each day alike can be nullified, why can't Jesus' command to Peter be reinterpreted? And what happens when tradition changes? Does God's will change?"
Paul did not issue commandments. God issued commandents. If you think Paul issued commandments then you are in error.
Man's understanding of the Gospel has never been complete. So there will be changes in ceremonies and other traditions as time goes on.
But Tradition (with a capital T) is Revelation. It does not change. Just as the Bible does not change.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Then it seems we have reached an impasse, as I can never agree with that, and Jesus even warned against those who would put their traditions on the level of God's Word. God spoke through Paul just as he did to the Apostles. Tradition is inherently a human construction, and filled with flaws. Since we can't reach an agreement on when the NT was even written, it seems unlikely we can agree on anything else. Keep in mind, though, that a large part of the Gospels are dedicated to Jesus upsetting tradition and criticizing the religious leaders for their man-made constructs. Jesus wasn't talking about protestants in the verse I quoted. He was talking to the Pharisees, and specifically addressing how they followed Tradition and ignored God's Word.
@railfan@xanga - Tradition (capital T) is God's word and is from God, not human beings. Therefore Tradition is inherently from God.
Your assertion that Tradition is from men is erroneous just as is your interpretation of Scripture. Only the Church can interpret Scripture correctly since it was Jesus who gave his authority to the Church.
Your interpretation of Scripture is from you, not God. That is why it is in error.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - The way you've set it up, there is no way to refute that. I can't use Scriptural references from Hebrews that talk about how Christ has removed our need for a mediator, because all my interpretations of Scripture are erroneous. I can't use Scripture to question your assertion that only the church can interpret Scripture, which isn't found in Scripture. I can't use Scripture to question that I can't use Scripture!
But I will use one more passage that no Tradition can rub away. 1 Tim 2:5-6. "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." Would you be willing to discuss what it says, rather than just dismiss it as coming from protestant lips?