By Dean LuskI had a great discussion with a friend this evening. We talked about several things, but one that kept me thinking was the fact that sometimes Christians don't hold to the same standards. That's pretty much fact.
A question that came to my mind -- one that I'd like for you to respond to -- is, how Biblical is too Biblical?
I won't qualify the question further for now, though it's admittedly a very broad question. You're free to take whatever angle you'd like, whether it touches on legalism, liberalism, literalism, or any other "l" word.
Comments (27)
I don't think that there is such thing as "too biblical."
Let me explain. I believe that the bible is God-breathed--that He orchestrated every part of it. In that way, one should not be legalistic, because in the bible He warns against legalism! As far as how literally to take the bible, I think there are several instances where the figurative language is -obvious-, other times its hard to distinguish. However, I think that the places where it's vague are not really points of contention, not to me anyways.
I think it's important to have a biblically based worldview. Otherwise, you're more likely to fall into "Christian" practices that really have nothing to do with what God said!
I don't really think the problem has ever been "too biblical," but rather, people taking things out of context or misunderstanding the meaning and then using it to defend their OWN ideas.
@openuptheheavens@xanga - I agree, all scripture "is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
But I do think the phrase "too heavenly minded to be any earthly good" does have some truth to it. Some people get so caught up in reading scripture and analyzing it that they neglect to apply it to their lives.
Anytime the scriptures are taken in a way that undermines God's original intent, the interpretation has gone too far. God's word is not to return void- it always has a purpose to cut and to convict; to change and to strengthen. So when I see someone using the scriptures in a way that does not accomplish a holy purpose-- I'm sure they're not using the scriptures correctly.
1 Tim 1:5 "
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith."
1 Tim 4:1-3 "
1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate
for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,"
So I would say that the question is NOT about "how Biblical is too Biblical", but the question is about "have you missed God's purpose?". Even Jesus (and His Apostles) said this when talking about the legalistic pharisees; quite often they "twisted" the scriptures. That's just another way of saying that they used the scriptures in a way that God did not intend.
The Word is supposed to enhance love from a pure heart, clean consciences, and sincere Faith. It is the message that God sends by his holy Spirit to convict and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The Scriptures can only be preached-- it's the Holy Spirit that implants and convicts with the message.
So I would say that the answer to a very general question is the general statement "Anytime you don't use the Bible according to the will of God."
@deepestrecesses - I agree! :)
@pnigophobicpk@xanga - I might even add that the person who is so caught up in analyzing (really, basically just picking at the scriptures in one way or another) is actually not "heavenly minded". I used to use that phrase all the time until it dawned on me: the person that is heavenly minded is going to be fulfilling the Law of Christ because he/she will be guided by the Spirit of Christ. The Law of Christ is to "Bear each others Burdens in Love" (Galatians 6).
So I might actually say that someone who is stuck in a mode of intelectually picking at the scriptures for his or her own purpose is actually driven by pride, and therefore earthly minded.
Anyway, I don't throw that out there as a correction, because I agree with what you said, I just throw it out there as something I've personally observed.
@openuptheheavens@xanga - Thanks!
I'd say anything that would earn the rebuke Jesus dished out to the Pharisees in John 5:39-40 would qualify as "too biblical"-- obsession with studying the words of Scripture to the exclusion of developing a personal relationship with God through Christ. (Which, ironically, is the subject of the words of Scripture, so yeah.)
Conversely, St. Augustine is on record as saying that, as long as the conclusion you take away from your Bible study is something that helps you love God and your neighbors more fully, it doesn't entirely matter whether what you found was the technically "correct" interpretation. You still got the point either way.
i'm reminded of one of my favorite religious anecdotes.
A prospective convert asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot. If he could do this, he would convert. Hillel thought for a moment, and then agreed. The man shifted to one foot, and Hillel announced, “What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole of the Torah and the remainder is but commentary. Go and study it.”
you can never be too "Biblical"
in fact, the more Biblical you are... the better it is... but it needs to be done in a smart way... understanding Verbal Plenary Inerrancy and Sola Scriptura... and if you do it wisely... and communicating with context... you can never be too Biblical...
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - and if you rightly interpret the Torah in all of it's fullness... you'll come to the conclusion that Jesus represents all that the Torah denotes... and if Jesus embodies the Torah, you find more about Jesus in the New Testament... so I suggest reading that to understand the Torah in all of its full understanding...
@leadworshipper82 - not sure why you told me all of that....... i'm not Jewish, or of any religion. i just like the anecdote. and i'm not interested in debating whose interpretation of the Torah is right.
I guess in it's true sense, you can't be too "religious" or "biblical" but the people that drive me crazy is that they claim to be "christian" or "religious" but don't live or speak in a that manner.
I grew up around a lot of these people and they just annoy me. If you claim to run your life by the bible and it's teachings then do that, don't go partying, drugging, & boozing up on Saturday and then act all "holy" on Sunday when you go to church. See the hypocrisy in that?
Any time you forget what Scripture is, you're being "too biblical". A lot of people revere it in a way that is idolatrous.
If a person doesn't take into account what Scripture is, he is being too biblical. It is a collection of holy writings made over time whose contents were determined by the bishops of the Church over time. They often contradicted one another and included books we don't or excluded ones we do. It was never officially dealt with except at local councils. It was never considered the only source of holy writings, and if there are others, then they also were authoritative. It was a kanon, a measuring stick.
Each of these documents addresses problems peculiar to their time and place. St. Paul wasn't writing 1 Corinthians to people living in the Bible belt. The Apostle John didn't give Revelation to his persecuted flock and say, "I know you can't understand this, and you're being murdered and suffering greatly, but please put this up on your bookshelf for people two thousand years from now." If we forget its original context and do not take it into account when we apply the Scripture, then we are being too biblical.
These two add up to the fact that the Bible is a tradition. There is no such thing as "Scripture vs. Tradition" as it's been framed for the last five hundred years in Protestant vs. Roman Catholic polemics. It is itself a tradition. A tradition, paradosis, is something that is handed down. The Bible is certainly handed down, and what's more, its contents are not self-evident. Its very definition is a tradition. It must, thus, be read interactively with the Christian community.
Most of them were not intended to be rulebooks: The wisdom literature is poetry. The epistles address local problems. Apocalyptic literature discloses what is about to happen to its readers (and says so). Several books are history. The prophets are a call to repentance. Only the Law and the Gospels may be framed as a rulebook, and the latter especially seems to defy that. Treating it as a law book is a mistake.
Scripture is not what is referred to in the Bible as "the Word of God". The "Word of God" is Jesus. The Bible is a created thing. In fact, there was no such thing as the Bible when its constituent books were written, so it would have made no sense to refer to it. This doesn't mean we can't call it "Word of God", but we must keep it distinct from the Bible.
Lastly, the Bible is given to us because we screwed up. Look at each and every book, and this is the case. Had we known God adequately, prayed, and loved our neighbor, there would be no need of the Bible. As it stands, it is a crutch to help us get to that level and attain the proper mentality.
If we forget these things, then we turn the Bible into an idol. If we remember them, then we can use it usefully. Most of the applications of the Bible today that are "too biblical" are trying to make it into something it is not, and in our culture, it usually involves affirming several of the things I've mentioned.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I like that quote :)
@deepestrecesses - But if, as mortals, we can't understand God's true intentions ("God works in mysterious ways"), how can a person know if their interpretation is going against what God meant?
@Liquid_Pain_523@xanga - how can a person know? a person can't... unless God reveals it to him/her... quite frankly God was kind enough to provide us with simple language and concepts that allows for us to understand His true intentions...
@Liquid_Pain_523@xanga - Romans 16:25-27
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
God has established and revealed his will according (and through) his gospel and the scriptures of the prophets.
Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
There are always going to be some that will suppress the truth of God (the mysteries that he has now made known to us) by their unrighteousness. So, against these, God was then, and is now revealing his "wrath" (and judgment) against them.
Ephesians 1:8-10
8... In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
But this remains, God has made know to us the Mystery of His will. The completion of his kind intention towards us is Christ.
Biblical is too biblical when:
(1) People literally interpret something that is blatantly untrue as revealed by modern science. Much of the bible is poetry and moral lessons and not all of it is meant to be taken word-for-word, especially through its edits and translations.
(2) When people will see a wicked act as justified in the name of their religion, when it's not justified by any other means. Fortunately I live in a secular country so there aren't witch burnings or anything (anymore at least), but there are still plenty of examples (such as the catholic church telling uneducated people in Africa that condoms are not only sinful but that they make AIDS worse, thereby perpetuating death an suffering of the populations).
My approach is way to liberal for some people and I am well aware. I adhere to the Scripture Passage which says that the letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law gives life. (2 Cor 3:6)
the term "Too biblical" would probably talk about inaccurately perceiving a verse in bible and applying.
Often theologians understand the bible (sometimes) very well!
But there is a breach between knowing it and applying it.
Therefor I think "too biblical" could also mean having the bible in the head, but not in the heart (Jesus says: "The letter kills, but the spirit brings life". In Greek that would be "The Logos (=word) kills, but the "Rhema" (=word) brings life.
People by themselves can not cling unto God, and can not live a Godly life if they do not continuously be dependent upon God.
I notice this for myself right now right here, as I write this text.. I can tell you zillions of the things of God, but right now I feel like I've not spent enough time with God, to really let God flow through my writing! What good would it do to be able to talk about God if God is a total stranger to you?
That'd be the 'too' (from too biblical).
But like people said before, there is no too biblical, because that would be the same as saying:
This person is too correct (in answering my question),or that fish is really too dead!
There's no deader than dead, and no correcter than correct; neither does for instance "too biblical" of biblical counsel exist.
"You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scripture that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:37b-40.
@canicus@xanga - "Most of the applications of the Bible today
that are "too biblical" are trying to make it into something it is not,
and in our culture, it usually involves affirming several of the things
I've mentioned."
I would have quoted your post in its entirety, but have trimmed it for brevity. I just wanted to thank you. Your words hold the ringing tone of grace and that's so rare these days on such forums as this. Very well said and I agree with you 100%
@canicus@xanga - "The 'Word of God' is Jesus. The Bible is a created thing. In fact, there was no such thing as the Bible when its constituent books were written, so it would have made no sense to refer to it. This doesn't mean we can't call it "Word of God", but we must keep it distinct from the Bible."
"Lastly, the Bible is given to us because we screwed up."
"If we forget these things, then we turn the Bible into an idol. If we remember them, then we can use it usefully. Most of the applications of the Bible today that are 'too biblical' are trying to make it into something it is not...."
Asmyfanwe@xanga stated, the whole quote should really be referenced. As I was reading it, at each point, I was right on the 'edge'---('Is this guy gonna go off into left field with this idea'--this was always in the back of my mind)--and then as you explained your points, I found myself saying to myself---'Yeah, that's really spot on!' I really appreciate your remarks. You've done some extensive study & really applied yourself as you have thot thru these issues.
I liked very much the thots attached to the above references in particular.
In handling the Scripture, it behooves us to use it wisely so that it can be properly said that "We are speaking as the Oracles of God" I Peter 4:11 [KJV] LAW--
I was raised a Christian but I've been a Buddhist for quite some time. In any religion or belief system for that matter there are 3 kinds of proof of the validity of what and how one believes.
1) Doctrinal proof - Do the doctrines that guide your belief make sense?
2) Theoretical proof - Do the ideas surmised by the interpretation based on the doctrines hold water or are there holes to be found? Does the document mesh with what is going on in the world around you or does it force you to discard the very world you live in. Does the theory support your life and your happiness or make you less able to deal with the world other than to dismiss the world as broken because it doesn't happen the way you believe it should? Does your belief allow you or even cause you to do the very things the doctrine says you should not do, like killing, criticizing others, hating others or being jealous of others?
3) Actual proof - Have you seen with your own eyes and experienced in your life what the doctrine and theory claim to be reality by putting the rubber to the road so to speak? Of the three, actual proof is the most important. Relying on doctrinal proof because you want to believe it should be so is like living on cotton candy because you believe a book that claims eating cotton candy 3 times a day will give you all the daily supplements a person needs.
I'm not calling the Bible cotton candy. I have seen that there are many varying interpretations gleaned from the Bible resulting in many varying theories, most of which are not born out in the realm of actual proof, thus causing many people to discard parts of reality in order to cling to flawed theories. In the realm of religion there are many who fight to the death defending erroneous beliefs like someone who refuses to believe that 1+1 does not equal 3. If we truly believe there is a God who created everything it should behoove us to not find ways to discard this creation. If anything, religious belief should be more exacting than math or science because it is on our beliefs that we bet the farm. Freedom to believe what we want is one thing. To not understand that our beliefs are what cause ourselves and others suffering is quite another. If you're truly a seeker...you know...seek and ye shall find, it should be contrary to your faith to accept living in the dark.
How is Biblical is too Biblical is interesting. Maybe it has to do with truth. What new truth has I learned. Sometime traditionism changes has time and knowledge changes. You can talk a text like for example 2 peter 1:19 and look at this one way and then someone else look at this same text another.
What version of the Bible that is correct?