In Idaho this week,
two people died in a 16 passenger van rolled on black ice. The van was on cruise control and was being driven by a 25 year-old who had no special training and had only a regular drivers license. This was a ministry team going to raise funds for their mentoring program which brings kids out for a nine month program after which they obtain their ministry certificate and are qualified to test to become pastors. There was a lot of pain and anguish, and now questions are being asked about the different mistakes that were made. No one wants the person who drove to feel guilty, especially because of the idea that Christians should be forgiving.
Do you think that the person driving should have charges brought up against them for causing the accident by not controlling the vehicle as many others are for causing accidents or does black ice immediately dismiss any of the drivers responsibility for the accident? The focus is being shifted to thankfulness and praise because all the people involved need to focus on this right now to process the severe injuries and fatalities that were a result.
Those who died were devote Christians, some never experienced even being kissed or even having a boyfriend or girlfriend. They had great plans for their lives that consisted of ministry. I knew one of the ones who died. This person was one of the most awesome people I've ever met, on fire for God and with a heart for outreach, an awesome musical talent, and a passion for discipline and teaching.
Should we as Christians dismiss the human error in this situation or should the person who drove and the organization they worked with who didn't care enough to not fill the van to full capacity (a very well
documented risk of roll over is warned for 15 passenger vans that are full) face consequences for the lives that were lost due to their lax standards?
What is your perspective on this situation? Should the Christian community be forgiving when one of its members causes an accident that results in fatalities, or should the person face the criminal repercussions?
Comments (19)
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
So....yes, they should be forgiven. I've never known Christianity to be in the business of retribution, although I have known Christians that think that that is an appropriate course of action.
Truthfully I think it should be a matter of intent. If the driver was being careless or doing something malicious and it can be proven then yes, charge the driver with a crime. Whether the driver is charged or not is irrelivant to criminal charges though. As Christians we are to forgive everyone, Forgiveness and legally getting off the hook are separate issues.
We live in a fallen world with consequences that chase our every action. For this driver and the organization, I am sure the tragedy is enough punishment in itself. I would not fault the driver alone, apparently there were at least 15 people who could have taken taken steps to change the situation. Justice should prevail, however, if laws were actually broken. Sorry to hear of the passing of your acquaintance.
Shit happens. We all have to deal with it whether we are Christian or not.
Two things should happen.
1. The driver should be unconditionally forgiven and no charges pressed by the church. If some of the students' parents were non-believers, then let them do what they feel is right (which may be to press charges). But the church needs to make it very clear that Christians choose the way of forgiveness and reconciliation.
2. In the future, the church and other churches affected by the tragedy need to instill stricter protocol for who drives vans, etc. Good rules are age requirements, clean driving records, limits on how long one driver drives at a time, things like that. It won't stop all accidents, of course, but it's important and this is a perfect opportunity to address a neglected issue.
since when did legal forgiveness become equated with spiritual forgiveness? just because God and Christianity as a whole may forgive you, doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished under the law.
It seems to me that a Christian driver committing any alleged violation should admit and accept all responsibility and penalty for any conduct that was illegal or inappropriate. Perhaps Daniel 3 & 6, and the examples in the New Testament and of King David ought to give us pause to consider how one responds. Such an admission, plus confession, would negate the need for an adversarial proceeding. However, if there is doubt or dispute, then we have a system to decide such matters and then accept such a decision and any resulting punishment.
The organization should be held accountable to establish policies to prevent this from happening again. But far worse than several people going home is if this were to cause strife or bitterness in the body of Christ. We need to bear up these people in love and help them to behave rightly, not divide ourselves from them, and there is a direct command in Corinthians that they should not be taken to court.
they are in a better place right? so no big deal.
Why is it that there seems to be this idea of responsibility in a situation that was an accident and could have happened to any driver of any age or level of driving experience, but when a person with an abusive childhood commits murder, not an accidental death, but murder, everyone seems to think we should feel sorry for the murderer and just get them some counseling. Where is personal responsibility then?
And anyone who thinks this accident could not have possibly happened while THEY were driving is fooling themselves. hi
Was he breaking any laws? Probably not, so why would you want him put on trial. I'm sure this young man was not drunk and didn't get behind the wheel thinking "I think I'll kill me some young people tonight and put my own life in danger while I go about it". Was he speeding? Maybe, but who of you has not?
Brother, I read the news article and the comments. I'm sorry for those comments that lacked grace and were extremely forceful (and unrelenting). I encourage you to choose life...and leave those people in the hands of someone that can help them (...and maybe Jesus is the only one). I sense they are working through their own pain, which this story rubbed.
I pray you receive rest offered by the living God!
I have to agree with @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - on this one. My first thought at the end of the post was to leave a comment that said:
For church justice, there's no question of forgiving and comforting the driver who did all they knew to do. Your information implies that the driver didn't disobey any rules that they were aware of, just that they were willing to do the task.
Social justice is an entirely different thing, though. It would have to be a matter for the authorities to decide. If the law finds the driver and the organization is responsible for the tragedy, then they must be punished. As Christians, both the driver and all who are responsible for the organization should humbly respect the law and concede to cooperate with humility rather than unedifying or angry defensiveness.
Thankfully, they [the driver and the organizational leaders] should have all the support and help they need from other believers as they go through this experience, no matter what else might happen.
justme
cm
Indeed we absolutely support the drive, we we know is seriously hurting and upset at the accident. I don't think the driver should be held responsible, I think that the Organization needs to be forced to make all their branches do driver safety courses designed for such vehicles because the driver obviously didn't realize that they shouldn't have been driving on cruise control in icy conditions. The loss is tragic and we miss the man very much, but to me, there has to at least be something said or done about the organizations lack of discipline in this area. Future lives could be at stake since they use these vans for every trip and are filing them to capacity. I do not mean to imply they should be shut down or fined or anything, but that there needs to be some kind of accountability.
I truly believe there is a purpose for each & everything that happens in our (Christian) walk. It shouldn't matter, (although I'm painfully aware that it does) that we do not always understand nor accept.
Personally, being left behind, without any family now (other than a dear cousin on the opposite of North America) & eager to join them in Glory... I've come to the realization that this life of ours is NOTHING in comparison to our NEW life with CHRIST... & I live one day at a time, trusting HIM & HIM ALONE. As HE will never let me (us) go from HIS grasp...
Blessings to you & those left behind...
It sounds like it was an accident for which the driver should not be blamed. Perhaps more would have died had that driver not been at the wheel. There's no way of knowing. Whenever you climb into a vehicle there's the chance you might not come out of it alive. It's a reality of life and we take measured risks every day, Christian or not.
You forgive,
However the man in charge will be forced to let the driver follow a course in driving a van or bus!
And as well give him additional training in how to prevent a next accident like this!
Clearly the guy was young! 25 years is very young to be responsible for other people's lives.
The cruise control should also never be used unless it can be disabled pretty fast, but busses are usually old, and their cruise control does not always support a fast disengaging.
A driver not having a drivers license is plain against the law, no matter which state you are in.
And a bus driver in charge of a larger vehicle than a car, and especially one entrusted with the lives of others, need to follow the law and get a course on how to drive it!
He could be brought to trial if he lied to his superior saying he had a drivers license. That would not be a spiritual thing, but a normal cultural thing.
On top of having the basic laws of the country met, we need to strive for excellency! Even if it is driving a bus!
Every job has it's own dangerous angles, in that for instance the person in charge of cleaning a kids sunday school should do his or her best to do the work as professionally as possible.
Study the job, and work to improve! You can't just put someone there because they can hold a broom in their hands! Imagine if there are mice, or cockroaches, and the person decides to put rat or insect poison in the corners of the room, and a kid finds it and eats it?
You see, training is a necessity.
Forgive, help the leader, and the driver in their efforts to prevent anything like that from happening again. And make sure that the person in charge and doing the chores is a responsible person!
A good leader can think ahead, and by thought can already provide solutions and systems to prevent the most plausible disasters.
Noone can prevent a drunk driver hitting the bus, but surely someone can make sure that when the tires of the bus look too old, they can get changed, before something worse happens!
@LoBornlyte@xanga -
"Shit happens. We all have to deal with it whether we are Christian or not."I'm going to take a page out of your book although I wish you'd be a little bit more compassionate and empathetic but I love you anyway Jedi Master. I'm going to be harsh here. The rest of this is not to you. I just wanted to grab onto what you so...politely...said. :)
Shit does happen and it truly doesn't matter whether you are Christian or not. Everyone feels pain and looks upwards for help when such a tragedy occurs. When Jesus walked the earth there was no such thing as "Christianity." There was such a thing as compassion for humans, wherever they came from. There is an edict in the book of Genesis last I looked which states "Man know thyself." Honestly...all I hear from Christians is that you cannot know yourself. I hear you say that you can never have the knowledge or wisdom to really understand Gods' works. *Cower* So when according to the Bible God said "know thyself" did he mean "know we are a bunch of masturbating violence prone wealth mongering sex happy guilt ridden stupid people" which He himself created, was that the true message he was really trying to send? For what purpose did he create that whole thing? Holy crap I could do better. Sorry but that doesn't wash with me. If the lives of the people who died in this accident are to mean anything it would be great if the rest of us would wake the f**ck up. That would make the deaths of these people worth an eternity. You think you're lonely and misunderstood? Think of wtf it's like to be God constantly listening to people preach nobody can understand Him and His ways. Seriously think about it. If you want God to know you when you die then determine to know Him now. He or She would be happy to meet you half way. And let me say something to you women. A woman who truly takes faith will attain enlightenment faster than a man. I've seen that a thousand times. Don't be a wishy washy Christian. Going to church does not make you a Christian. Choosing or growing up in a religion is not like choosing or growing up playing Monopoly as opposed to playing Scrabble. It's not like playing Unreal Tournament as opposed to playing Doom. It's serious shit folks. It's what you base your life on. Make sure it's real or else you're faking it and fakes are easily exposed. Sorry to be so harsh because I know people here are sincere but when it comes to life and death there are no prisoners. It's not "good news". It's not "I've been saved because I believe in Jesus". It's discovering what the hell Jesus was talking about and finding it in yourselves. Yeah, big responsibility but the only responsibility you'll ever have to take. Mark my words.
Depends, s~what we have judges for. for example, if the person causing the wreck were a young foolish teenager that was remorseful and was in the wrong place doing the wrong thing. Well then surely a stiff sentence but NOT ruin his/her whole life because of one really bad thing. Then as another example on the other end of the spectrum of reasonability; if a person is on their second or third drunk driving charge and ruins other peoples lives for lack of respect for the previous charges then perhaps the full weight of the law should apply. [[note:I'm NNNOT for the death penalty but if the state the crime is committed in has the death for death law then I suppose that should be the verdict because that is usually the heaviest law] but as I said in the first comment, 'That is what we have judges for.' depends ~prayers and best possible outcome,[really sorry this happened!folks]kingofallclergy [don't confuse trusting people on the roadways with trusting people in your personal life,edeichinger2009/kingofallclergy