Tuesday, 10 November 2009
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The Triune God
The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God — is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos. Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:
“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
A New Testament example is James 2:19:
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.”
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:
“I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:
“But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”
Then there is the baptismal formula:
“baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
One name (God) — One "what" and three "who's."
JESUS — That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
HOLY SPIRIT — Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come” (John 16:13).
TRI-UNITY — The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference
to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality. We “see” God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then “experience” their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be “out there,” everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.
Similarly, men have always felt the need to “see” God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected “models” of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.
Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence “within.” But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.
Do you agree with this explanation of the trinity? What is your personal belief on the triune God?
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- From: MC_Shann@xanga
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Comments (31)
it's been said that to try to understand the Trinity you'll lose your mind but to not believe the Trinity you will lose your soul... i think the picture used to describe the Trinity has it to some degree though it is still flawed... but more or less yes, The Father is NOT Jesus Who is Not The Holy Spirit Who is NOT The Father... but all three are God in the same...
the word trinity is not in the Bible. I really don't believe that it's that big of a deal.
When it comes down to Theological nitpickings like this, I ask the question, "Does spending all your time trying to figure this out help the Kingdom come to Earth?"
"“I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it
was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”"
this reminds me strongly of Zoroastrian teachings. i wouldn't be surprised of the Jews, and then the Christians, had borrowed that idea from them.
"Similarly, men have always felt the need to “see”
God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this
knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into
polytheism and idolatry."
funny... i tend to view most Christian theology as distorted concepts of polytheism.
@foxes_have_holes@xanga - Though I completely resonate with your emphasis on right-living when put up against right-doctrine, we must recognize the importance of Trinity. We must have answer as to who Jesus is. Trinity has been the best name/description our brothers and sisters in the faith many centuries ago could employ to clarify who Jesus is, both God and man, but not some strange mixture of both making him neither. I have grown in my appreciation of the doctrine of the Trinity. It starts with the fact that we baptize "in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
too_pretty_to_die's last line is a case in point.
I think that there's more of an incomprehensible mystery than what you've explained. The bible talks about the mystery of the godhead. I believe there is a distinction between the 3 but there is also some unexplainable way in which they are one and not distinct also. The bible says there is only one Spirit, yet it also says that the Father is spirit and talks about the spirit of Christ. The bible also says in Isaiah that one of the names of Jesus would be the everlasting Father. And in Colossians we read that in Jesus dwells the fullness of the godhead.
@soy_esteban@xanga - all that being said, and I do believe Jesus is God, but I would follow him even if he wasn't. Loving God and loving one's neighbor, at least as far as I can tell, is far more important than attempting to figure out what it looks like when God reveals himself. For all we know, there is much more to the trinity than just 3 parts. Maybe there's 2 more parts to it that nobody ever wrote down and were forgotten. The Bible is truth, but it does not contain all truth. It is the measure that we use to find truth in the world.
I do respect people's search for what the Trinity means, but I just can't see how it matters and I don't think anyone will come to a conclusion on it. I think the best we can do is settle for our limited grasp on it and move on.
But that's just my opinion. I have no authority on such matters.
God cannot fit into a mathematical equation. Thus saying that the Trinity is not mathematically possible is void. God created the laws of nature, therefore He must exist outside of them.
Another verse:
"Then God said: 'Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and the creatures that crawl on the ground."
I can hardly believe it -- a revelife post I accually totally agree with. Good work fighting for the Trinity. We can never 'move on' from the Trinity any more than we can move on from the Truth. The Word was in the beginning, but the Word did not create the universe; the Spirit guides us, but the Spirit did not become man; no one has seen the Father. If we blur these distinctions, we loose sight of everything.
@gmx0@xanga - Just out of curiosity. What will the sign do once it has infiltrated Christianity? My guess is that it will join up with the Pope's hat (which also contains Satanic symbols) and the NIV bible to take over and change Christianity forever! Muah haha haaa!
Just kidding!
At least some polytheism such as Hinduism is often misinterpreted by outsiders. The various Gods and Goddesses in Hinduism are actually revered as aspects of one God. I'm guessing it is a way for people, having different personalities, to connect more easily. Some people tend to value prosperity more while others value wisdom more while others value love more. Whether or not this was the original intention one could say that Hinduism offers people, based on their predilections, various inroads to meeting their maker.
One of the biggest downfalls of many authoritarian religions comes in the form of making people believe God is something outside of themselves and that the practitioners cannot "see" God. God exists within oneself and within all things. In reality there is no disconnect. That we fail to comprehend that does not make this any less so. It's like the mind. The mind has no color or shape and yet one cannot say it does not exist because there are thoughts constantly occurring to it. As long as we believe that God is something outside of ourselves all of the theory boils down to even less than discussing the game of football without ever having touched a football. At least one can come to understand football to a degree without ever having felt the force of a tackle or the sting of a bullet pass hitting ones' hands. We can read and study all we want but ultimately God is only found within but the key is, God can be found within. The words "Seek and ye shall find" spring to mind.
As for the Trinity not making mathematical sense, science gives us another way to justify a reality not making mathematical sense. If two objects were able to travel at the 186,000 mile per second speed of light and at that speed had a head on collision their combined impact would still be 186,000 miles per second. It doesn't make mathematical sense either. In fact the realities of physical existence as we perceive them don't make a hell of a lot of sense once we delve into the world of quantum physics. Pretty amazing stuff actually.
@gmx0@xanga -
"our job is not to bring the kingdom but to seek it."Good point.
There are huge problems with both this post and many of the comments.
First, theology expressed in this post is as cold as a dead mackrel. Correct theology has a vibrant inner life to it that attracts the human heart.
Second, the coldness of this post and the errors expressed in the comments are caused by one thing only: they completely miss the final lesson of God's Revelation to man about Himself.
That final lesson, expressed in the life and teachings of Jesus is that the Trinity is family. Since man is created in God's image, family is also what we are.
Human beings are completely capable of contemplating family. As such we are able to join with God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in His deepest inner nature.
I don't agree at all with this article. The concept of the Trinity is not taught in the Bible. That God's power is called the Holy Spirit, that God did have a begotten son, Jesus is all true. But they are not themselves part of the Godhead. How was Jesus begotten, and of the line of Abraham, and a son of David if he were God? The whole concept of the "trinity" was not believed by the first century Christains, but instead it developed overtime with political conflict. It finally was voted into being by a political decision, not a church decision, in the 4th century AD. Jesus is a human man, the Bible says God is not man. The Bible says God cannot die, yet Jesus died.
What is most important about this is understanding God, and how Jesus came to save us from our sins, and how the righteousness of God is demonistrated in Jesus's death...makes no sense, or is missunderstood if Jesus is considered God. The LORD our God is one Lord...read the Bible...and see....don't make it say what it doesn't say! Did Jesus die as a substitution? then he would have remained dead. Most Christains do not seem to understand how Christ's death can save us from our sins and be a means for forgiveness of sins. They also don't understand how baptism is necessary for salvation. They also don't understand that forgiveness of sins is necessary to be given eternal life. God is not going to allow sinners to live forever.
Of course we are all to love one another and all that...but it is important to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he sent. If you don't...well are your worshippping the true God or something you made up? What are you looking for?
@lindasuzanne@xanga - The problem with throwing out the idea that Jesus can be identified with God is that you end up replacing the beautiful self-giving God of the atonement with an act of divine child abuse. If God killed Jesus to appease his wrath, it's the same as a husband who kicks the dog to avoid hitting his wife. Only if Jesus can be identified with the God who acted in Israel's history can we see Jesus' suffering as God bearing our burdens.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - Never thought I'd say this, but I think you're right on every point.
@lindasuzanne@xanga - The concept of the Trinity is not taught in the Bible.
Yes it was, and in many places. But your points can be devasted by the last thing Jesus said on earth:
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).
With that command, Jesus named God for all time. In the ancient way, naming something revealed its identity.
God is a family made up of three persons. This has been the Christian understanding of God since the beginning. The councils you speak off were convened to officially reputiate the heresies that would destroy the identity of God and thus destroy the Gospel message of Christ.
One of the first heresies was Arianism. Arias held that Jesus was less than divine, that he was a creature made by God. That's the heresy that you have fallen victim to.
It was addressed by the Council of Nicaea in 325AD. The Council of Constantinople of 381AD addressed the divinity of the Holy Spirit.
@SirNickDon@xanga - Never thought I'd say this, but I think you're right on every point.
For all the hell I give you I want you to know that I have true affection for you. You are kind, considerate, good and emminently spankable.
@SirNickDon@xanga - How can Jesus be God? The Bible says explicitly in Luke 1:35 that it was the Son of God (Jesus) who is born of Mary, a woman. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." Galatians 4:4 says "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman." In John 20:17 Jesus says after he is risen from the dead: "But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
I don't think you understand why Christ died. It has nothing to do with appeasing the wrath of God. . Look at John 3:16 "God so loved the world that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." and Hebrews 12:2 "Jesus.....who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." It has to do with love...of making a way for men and women to be granted eternal life. Sin has to be removed, God is righteous!! God would not be righteous if a sinner was allowed to live forever --there are no Star Wars senarios...as well as no supernatural evil devil powers. God's will is done in heaven (Lord's prayer). Jesus died, a perfect man, making a way that if we believe in him, we can be baptized into his death (the grave could not hold him), thus in symbol dying, and then raised to life. Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised upfrom the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." read verse 5 too. Jesus died so that our sins could be forgiven if we demonistrate through baptism that we put our sinful nature to death and choose to live a life in obedience to God and Jesus.
If Jesus were divine, his death would be impossible. He would not have overcome the sinful nature. How could it save us? But Jesus having our nature, never sinned, and then gave himself as a sacrifice. He was tempted in all points like we are, yet never sinned God cannot sin, God cannot die...what Jesus did makes no sense if he were divine..he couldn't sin then, so what was the point of his sinless life? But Jesus was human.
From the very beginning, Jesus was in the plan of God. Genesis 3:15 he was promised. He was in the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the promises to King David... The Psalms, Isaiah all had propehecies about Jesus....the whole plan of God is centered around him. And that is why John said he was the word made flesh...he had been foretold about in the written word.
Careful Bible reading..you need to read carefully and read the whole Bible so you will believe the truth about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
@lindasuzanne@xanga - How can Jesus be God?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
How can Jesus be God? Because the Bible says so.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - you said:
Yes it was, and in many places. But your points can be devasted by the last thing Jesus said on earth:
Go,
therefore, and make disciples of all the nations. Baptize them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).
My reply: Huh? There is nothing in this statement that alludes to a trinity! Yes we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I totally agree. 1 Timothy 2:5 goes along with saying, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Jesus is still called a man even though he is immortal. Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man The Holy Spirit is simply God's power. Explain Acts 10:38 "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power" so would you say the trinity was annointing each other?
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You said:
God
is a family made up of three persons. This has been the Christian
understanding of God since the beginning. The councils you speak off
were convened to officially reputiate the heresies that would destroy
the identity of God and thus destroy the Gospel message of Christ.
My reply: Not at all. You don't know your history. The doctrine of the trinity came into being in the 4th century ...look it up in Encyclopedia Brittanica I would say false Christianity came up with this wrong concept. One God is the God of the Bible. Take a look at the book: "When Jesus Became God The Epic Fight over Christ's Divinity in the Last Days of Rome" by Richard E. Rubenstein
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You said:
One
of the first heresies was Arianism. Arias held that Jesus was less
than divine, that he was a creature made by God. That's the heresy
that you have fallen victim to.
My reply:
Nope, You got that wrong. Go to the Bible...that is the Word of God. You may believe whatever you want to, but if you stray from the Bible, then I disagree with you. How do you see Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings..." ? God, the one true God is the God of Jesus. See 1 Corinthians 15:28 speaking of a future time, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God maybe all in all" This makes so sense if Jesus is God. Jesus is never God. He is God's son.
@lindasuzanne@xanga - My reply: Huh? There is nothing in this statement that alludes to a trinity!
Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That's three: The Father, one, the Son, two, the Holy Spirit, three.
Trinity means three. Just because the Bible doesn't say the word trinity or the word three doesn't mean the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt aren't three.
They clearly are to anyone who is reasonable.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings..." ? God, the one true God is the God of Jesus.
As Jesus said, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is nothing about your quote that says that Jesus is not God.
Read the first chapter of John! It clearly states that Jesus is God. Also Jesus said that he and his Father are one. How can you claim to follow Scripture and deny explicit scriptural statements that say Jesus is God?
Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know Scripture. You're just a garden variety heretic who's pedalling lies.