Saturday, 07 November 2009
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Response to Death, Philosophy and Souls
In reading this post this morning, it was the first time I'd ever seen someone who believes in the resurrection posit that there is no human soul. The relevant paragraphs were: I don't believe people have souls. We are bundles of tissues and nerves and synapses that, when working properly, constitute a person. When they are no longer working, they constitute a dead person. There is an abstract and purposive part of human consciousness that could be called the soul, but I don't believe it is self-existent or capable of being abstracted from human physicality. So when you die, you die.
Some might think (and certainly Prof. Kagan thinks) that challenging the belief in the soul would be problematic for evangelical Christians, but I don't see any real obstacles. It is not on the basis of an immortal soul that Christians believe in life after death, but on the basis of the saving activity of God. There's nothing special about humans that makes us innately immortal.Now obviously, right from the start, I disagree. Traditional Christianity, and the Catholic Church, have always maintained the existence of an immortal soul that survives the death of the body, and indeed the definition of death is the separation of soul and body. To believe otherwise puts us at odds with certain scripture passages, for instance Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Further, Saint Paul speaks of our bodies as earthly tents, which will be destroyed so that we may enter into heavenly dwellings (2 Corinthians 5:1).
The entire tenor of the Bible is impossible to understand without the assumption that there is something in humans that is immortal, which we call a soul. Without that understanding, the arguments of Jesus with the Sadducees, or Paul's escape by pitting them against the pharisees, or the story of the witch of Endor, even the injunctions against divining and necromancy, make no sense. When reading the Old Testament, one gets the idea that communication with the dead was forbidden, not because it doesn't work, but because there was the horrible possibility that it might.
However, the argument was not so much whether there is life after death, but rather why there is life after death. The supposition was that there is nothing innately in our nature that would keep us alive, but rather (I take it) that God keeps us alive, or brings us back to life, by a miracle.
There is some truth to this, but it is formulated in such a way as to draw a false distinction, as if the possibility of humans being innately immortal somehow negated the constant work of God. Of course it is the constant and inescapable attention of God that keeps us alive, before and after death. We are the sort of creatures who sustain themselves in a physical environment, but that does not negate the fact that it is God who keeps us in existence. Our nature as physical beings is to live. That nature comes from God. There is no contradiction between the two. In the same way, if our nature is such that our consciousness continues after and independently of the death of the body, it was God who designed and created that nature and keeps it in existence.
The problem, then, with saying that "It is not on the basis of an immortal soul that Christians believe in life after death, but on the basis of the saving activity of God" is that it creates the false impression that immortality was something tacked onto our nature after the fact, rather than our destiny from before the world began. It also connotes salvation with immortality, as if the mere fact of living forever was synonymous with resurrection into glory. It is also part of our faith that humans can live forever in hell, forever cutting themselves off from God's saving love.
There is, however, another kernel of truth there, in the insistence on the bodiliness of the soul. The human person was never meant to exist without a body. In fact, the very urge to cheat death, to live forever, to survive in legend, in memory, in monuments, in descendants, all prove that we were never meant to die. We are the sort of creatures who were created to live. The fact that we get thirsty indicates that we were meant to drink water. The fact that we hunger for immortality indicates that we were meant to live forever.
(It may be argued that animals also struggle to escape death, but I would disagree that this is the same thing. I've noticed that it isn't the fact of dying that animals mind, but the fact of being killed. To me that seems to indicate that the present violence and destruction in the animal kingdom were not part of the original order of creation, but that animals were still always meant to die.)
The basic premise of Theology of the Body is that the human being is a creature that is meant to be body and soul, a union of two types of creature into one. Originally that union was indissoluble, just as the union of marriage was originally indissoluble. It was only with the entrance of sin that marriage and the unity of the human person became unstable. There is a profound rightness to this understanding. From the beginning God created man, body and soul, and humans, male and female. He created the different unions to be dependent on and sacramental of each other to some extent, so that it is through the fact of being bodily that a masculine soul and a feminine soul can unite, and it is through a bodily act that this is done. It is through sin that death and divorce enter the world, both being the same reality in different unions. Death is the disintegration and disunion of the union of the human person, body and soul. Divorce is disintegration and disunion between the male and female, the man and woman in the communion of persons. Body and soul, male and female, one flesh. After sin, corpse and ghost, pimps and prostitutes, disintegration and death.
Thus the natural meaning of the human person, and the natural state of the human person, was one that tended toward eternal life by nature. We tended toward God. To say that it was by nature is not to diminish God's role, anymore than saying that I breath by nature negates God's constant saving work in keeping me breathing. After sin we tend away from God, so the curiosity is not the desire for and longing for immortality. Rather, the curiosity is the human who attempts to deny it. That is the freak, the anomaly, the stunted creature, who will not accept that he is human and therefore going to live forever. He would rather be an animal.
The glory of Eden was something we don't understand, but probably more like immortality than anything else we can comprehend. (The tree of life seems to us like mythical language, though I see no reason why God shouldn't create a fruit tree which, when eaten of, would bestow eternal life.) The reality of fallen man is death, but the soul, being spiritual, does not die. It continues separate from the body, an abomination, a corruption. Even the souls of the just are not as they were meant to be as long as they are unbodied. But now we witness the saving might of God, who out of death can bring resurrection. Not the undoing of the evil that was done in Eden, but the redemption of it. The body and soul will be reunited. They will be intrinsically joined so that the body, while still being bodily and even more fully bodily than it is now, will nevertheless be also spiritual. We see glimpses of this in the transfiguration, and in the Risen Body of our Savior which could pass through walls and yet still enjoy some grilled fish, appear and disappear undeterred by the ordinary boundaries of space and time, and yet still be tangible to the touch of dear friends. Saint Paul tells us that "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44.
There is more going on than meets the eye. Our souls are immortal, because God created them to be. Immortality is not the anomaly, death is. Resurrection is the eternal plan of redemption of death, the final conquering. After that, "What we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2
What is your reaction to this response?
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Comments (23)
I agree with most of your response. To deny the existence of an extra-physical human element is to dance around a enormous chunk of scripture.
We are the sort of creatures who were created to live. The fact that we
get thirsty indicates that we were meant to drink water. The fact that
we hunger for immortality indicates that we were meant to live forever.
I do think that is a bit weak, however. It could easily be argued that we hunger for immortality simply because we have the intellectual capacity to fully comprehend and appreciate the total finality of death and the priceless value of being alive.
Yeah, subSacred has got a point. We don't want to be animals, and we desire a lot of things. For all I know, if immortality were real, then so would be unicorns.
BUT, you believers out there, don't get me wrong. We are currently not intellectual enough to prove if immortality is real or not, so there's always that little bit of hope left in me. But it ain't faith.
For some reason, I also believe that the Bible is constantly speaking metaphorically. I believe that immortality is whatever affect we have on Earth, that we constituted before our deaths. You know? I could still go on clarifying this, but I'm going to assume that I make sense.
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - We are currently not intellectual enough to prove if immortality is real or not
A person who devotes himself to prayer, fasting and charity in the name of Father, the Son and Holy Spirit becomes well aware of the immortal realm of God.
The proof that you require falls under the realm of empiricism. Empiricism is great for gaining understanding of the finite material realm.
But it is useless for matters of the infinite spiritual realm. The human intellect is capable of approaching matters of faith. But it is through the life of discipleship that faith is proven conclusively.
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - I believe that immortality is whatever
affect we have on Earth, that we constituted before our deaths. You
know? I could still go on clarifying this, but I'm going to assume that
I make sense.
It definitely makes sense.I don'treally I agree in that definition of immortality, but I do believe that Christian or not, we should live our lives not according to the existence or nonexistence of a supernatural afterlife, but according to the immediate and long term effects our lives have on the physical world as we know it.
In other words, some who don't believe in an afterlife use it as an excuse to live irresponsibly and selfishly. On the other hand, there are those that are so preoccupied with spiritual eternal rewards or eternal punishments that they make choices only based on that, disregarding the physical reality about them. In either case, themselves, those around them, and generations to follow will be somehow impacted by the consequences of their actions. Although in my opinion that is not a picture of immortality, it is part of eternity, and plays an important role in the human race.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - That sounds like B.S. that's been candy-coated.
This God of yours doesn't seem as realistic. You don't have pray, fast, or do charity work for this God. You can do all these kinds of things as an atheist. Praying, has always been an exercise humans perform to reflect over the problems in life and to seek either comfort, wallow in sadness and fear, or to problem solve.. God is just an unknown entity we built in our lives, like an imaginary friend that we lean on during hard times.
"Empiriscism is great for gaining understanding of the finite material realm." Yes, it is true. Empiricism and science go hand in hand. We absolutely are not wrong to rely on these completely. I'm sure that if there is a God, he wouldn't feel wronged for giving humans such intellectual curiosity, and such limits.
Faith is nothing more than one of those things we humans conjure, kind of like imagination. Again, we can think of whatever doesn't exist, and somehow that possibility of whatever you believe to exist . . . Might be real. Right, God, unicorns, and UFO's may be real.
I don't understand why people are so stubborn about God's existence, as if he REALLY does exist.
We'll never know alright? Not until we rot away on earth, will we come to a conclusion- that is if a soul actually existed. I know it sounds sad, but if it's the truth- that we're mortal beings . . . then that's how it is.
For my entire lifetime, I'll live in wonder, as we humans do, never knowing if God actually existed or not, until I die. I don't mind. If I live forever, awesome. If not, then what's there to complain about?
@subSacred@xanga - Yes! Exactly! I have a grandmother who's depressed about life, just because of her Faith. And her son, my uncle, is the guy who's taking his atheism for granted.
"The fact that we get thirsty indicates that we were meant to drink
water. The fact that we hunger for immortality indicates that we were
meant to live forever."
there are human beings who desire to kill others. does that mean they are meant to, that it is an outcome blessed by God?
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - You don't have pray, fast, or do charity work for this God. You can do all these kinds of things as an atheist.
That is true. But I made sure to say to pray, fast and do charity in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In that way one gains the fullness of discipleship.
Empiricism and science go hand in hand. We absolutely are not wrong to rely on these completely.
Actually, people who rely on empiricism completely are cutting themselves off from the greater realm of knowledge that is accessible through the intellect.
Most math is arrived at through pure reason, not empiricism, for example. And math lies at the foundation of science. It is completely illogical to place all reliance on empiricism while denying its non-empirical foundation, mathematics.
Likewise in the spiritual, theological and philosophical realms. Empiricism simply does not serve in these areas. Pure reason is the starting point not empiricism.
There is a school of thought that exists within heterodoxy that hold to the idea that the human being is "tripartite". That is Body, soul and spirit. They make the case that the body and soul are things that perish at death, and that the spirit of the human is that non-physical part that goes to dwell in Heaven or Hell until the resurrection of the other parts.
Here is a quick look at how they reason this idea....
DUST + BREATH = SOUL
The Biblical definition of a soul is simply a breathing body. Notice that the text does not say that man was given a soul, but rather he became a soul. A soul is not something a person has, it is the person. Souls have blood (Jeremiah 2:34). Not only are people souls, but so are fish and animals (Revelation 16:3).
The Hebrew word for soul, nephesh, is variously translated "person" (Genesis 14:21), "self" (Leviticus 11:43), "life" (Psalm 31:13), "me" (Judges 16:30), "creature" (Genesis 1:21), "beast" (Leviticus 24:18), "man" (2 Kings 12:4), "thing" (Ezekiel 47:9), and "fish" (Isaiah 19:10). When translated "body" the nephesh is usually dead (Leviticus 21:11).
The Greek word for soul, psuche, has the same meaning. In Matthew 16:25 Jesus commends anyone who will lose his soul (psuche) for Christ’s sake. It is often translated simply as "life" (Matthew 2:20). It means "person" (Acts 7:14). "My soul" and "your soul" are idiomatic expressions meaning "I" and "you" (Matthew 12:18; 2 Corinthians 12:15, margin).
SOUL - BREATH = DUST
"If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust." Job 34:14, 15.
The Hebrew word for spirit (and ghost, Job 3:11), ruach, and the Greek word, pneuma, mean breath, wind, or vital element. It is the spark of life which makes you able to live. It is "the breath of the Almighty" (Job 33:4). When the Bible uses those words in reference to man, not once does it say that ruach or pneuma is something in man that retains consciousness after the person dies.
Angels are called spirits (Psalm 104:4) because to human eyes they are as invisible as breath. But man does not possess the nature of angels (Psalm 8:5), nor does the Bible indicate that he assumes it at death.
A soul is like the light that results when a light bulb is connected to a power source. The spirit, or breath of life, is the electric current.
Electricity will produce light only while it is flowing through the bulb. When the filament in the bulb breaks, the electrical circuit is broken, and the light goes out.
Just as the light cannot exist unless there is both electricity and a bulb, so there must be both the breath of life and a functional body in order for there to be a living soul.
Not That I agree with any of this or with SirNick. However, since he has yet to expound or offer any retorts perhaps we should wait and see just exactly what more he has to say on this. Because if he does imply that spirit and soul are one and the same thing he has definitely stepped outside of orthodoxy in this area...
@MC_Shann@xanga - There is a school of thought that exists within heterodoxy that hold to the idea that the human being is "tripartite".
If Sir Nick is having a crisis of faith or has succumbed to some great error, would it not be more profitable to expound at length on orthodoxteachings instead of heterodoxy?
Cheers - Robin
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - "I don't understand why people are so stubborn about God's existence."
Maybe it's because we have a soul.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Yet how does that make God realistic? Why is it that people can still live without a religion? I don't think there's anything wrong with being atheist.
@monobeam@xanga - What soul?
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - Yet how does that make God realistic? Why is it that people can still live without a religion? I don't think there's anything wrong with being atheist.
Nothing makes God realistic anymore than nothing makes you realistic. You have being. God is being. You are real because you are. God is real because he is.
Being is not dependent upon religion. The purpose of religion is to fulfill one's experience of being. Christianity is the result of God's revelation of himself to man. Therefore Christian worship of God is most complete and fulfilling.
Atheism is wrong because it is unreasonable. Atheism is a religion of denial. God's universe is one of affirmation of life and goodness and the source of goodness.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - Then unicorns must be real.
If you were born in a land where nobody knew of God, then are you telling me they don't have the source of this "goodness" you speak of?
Because atheism, has done little harm. You don't need to believe in a God to get through in life. And I know plenty of good people who are not religious.
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - Then unicorns must be real.
The existence of unicorns cannot be arrived at by reason. The existence of God can be arrived at by reason.
Because atheism, has done little harm.
The greatest mass murders in history have been committed by atheists. Atheism denies the existence of God who is the author of goodness.
Such denial is indeed harmful.
To me a Breath of Life is the same as Living Soul. In the Bible in Genesis 2:7 And God form man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostils the breath of life, and man because a living soul.
So, without the Breath of life we are a dead soul.
Whether we like it or not, we as human, our life is hemmed in by two very great walls. BIRTH AND DEATH.. There are some people who claim to know what it was like before birth. The concelp to me is pagan philosophies.
What two elements did God use to produce the first human being? (Dust of the ground and breath of life.) These are the same mentioned in Ecclesiastes 12:7.
The dust of the ground is out body, and the breath of life is the , In Job 27:3 the breath and spirit are used inter changeably.
Also the Hebrew word for Soul mean Nephesh "that which breathes. Also the Greek whichPsuche' which translated soul or life.
So the term living soul don't not relate to immortal but the fact that we are living.
@MC_Shann@xanga - Just add on to your report.
@fallingraindrop@xanga - No! Sure, if you're a believer in God, you'll feel blackmailed in a sense that if you sin, you go to hell, and you won't enter this place called heaven.
But it doesn't mean that every atheist person is a killer; and being atheist is not wrong.
Atheists are doing just fine! There is no such thing as denial if you were born someplace isolated from the people who were brainwashed by religion, and never heard about God. Denial my butt.
@BlehhItsTu@xanga - " What soul?"
And I ask you, what realism? That is, what is your world-view, your system which is more real and compelling than Christianity?
Might I add that in a sinless world animals weren't meant to die any more than humans were? If it weren't for us screwing up, they'd get to live forever, too. :(