I'm currently auditing a philosophy course on the subject of death. Roughly the first half of the course is focused on the nature of a person (what is it that dies when we die and therefore what does it mean to die?). This professor does not believe in any kind of transcendent or pre-existent soul, so most of the class so far has been spent looking at every conceivable argument
for the existence of the soul, and explaining how the argument fails to persuade.
I come into the discussion from a unique perspective. I am with Prof. Kagan. I don't believe people have souls. We are bundles of tissues and nerves and synapses that, when working properly, constitute a person. When they are no longer working, they constitute a dead person. There is an abstract and purposive part of human consciousness that could be called the soul, but I don't believe it is self-existent or capable of being abstracted from human physicality. So when you die, you die.
Some might think (and certainly Prof. Kagan thinks) that challenging the belief in the soul would be problematic for evangelical Christians, but I don't see any real obstacles. It is not on the basis of an immortal soul that Christians believe in life after death, but on the basis of the saving activity of God. There's nothing special about humans that makes us innately immortal. As Frederick Buechner put it, "We go to our graves as dead as a doornail and are given our lives back again by God just as we were given them by God in the first place."
What do you think? Do you believe humans have souls? If so, how is a soul best defined? Did your soul exist before you were born? What will happen to your soul after your body dies?
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I think almost all christians believe in a soul. It is an interesting question if most believe the soul is there before birth. I think that our body is what anchors our soul to this world, however I find it hard to believe that once the tether to that anchor is broken that we are separated from this worl completely. That would lead to the major question of why we exist here in the first place. Especially if one believe the fire and brimstone people who by default preach that most people only live here so they can lose their souls to eternal damnation.
That doesn't seem to fit the view of a loving God.
I do believe we have souls
But I do really wonder how many Christians believe their soul existed before their body. I wonder if any would be willing to answer why we (or at least most of us) don't remember before we were born, and maybe what they think we did.
Isn't that the view of John Hick? I think you'd be interested in him, who is a materialist Christian, along with Peter something-wagon.
I do disagree with you.
Given your description, you are identical to your physical body. Then when your physical body dies, you're dead and buried. So what exactly does God save? You are, and you are only, the physical body that's dead and buried. Unless God uses your physical remains to regenerate you back to life(which he doesn't), he created something else. He created a replica of you. He created something that may look like you but it isn't you. And so given materialism, you can't be alive after you die.
Yes, I believe I am a soul, and I couldn't have existed before I was born. I'd characterize (i dunno how to define it) a soul as the non-physical thing that thinks and feels and has beliefs and can influence my physical body.
Do you believe in free will?
You haven't begun to address the question of the existence of the soul. What's your basis? Do you believe that humans have spirits? What is the difference between spirits and souls? What do we do with Scriptural uses of the terms, like Ecclesiastes 3:21, where the Preacher talks about animals' spirits going downward and human spirits going upward? When the dead are judged (as described in Daniel and other places) is it in physical form? What is the ontological nature of the dead Lazarus and dead rich man described in Luke 16? Who were the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to?
In other words, why should we consider your viewpoint when we ponder the question of the existence of the soul? For you simply to say "I don't believe in it" is not helpful, except to stir up pointless controversy.
I'm not making a case for commonly accepted definitions of soul and spirit, I'm just saying that if you're going to bring this up, at least say something substantial about it.
i think the concept of a soul came about because, as beings with a very aware conscious, we wanted a way to express and name that consciousness.
@Roadkill_Spatula@xanga - the only argument he seems to be making is that the Christian concept of immortality rests more on God's actions than on whether souls exist. i don't see why you want him to defend his personal beliefs, when they they are at best indirectly related to the topic at hand.
Yes, we have a soul; it is the "essence" of who we are. As for the last two questions...haven't thought about them.
I do believe in a soul. I believe in a portion of the soul existing before conception and I can't prove it scientifically. But I can prove it through meditation. If one learns mediation practices and has connection w/ the soul then that's all the proof needed for the person. As with all mystical traditions there are meditation forms that reveal more than science and reason can deduce or confirm. Most world religions believe in some form of the soul. Science and philosophy are great. But then so is meditation and prayer. I would argue that in order to be whole one must use all of it.
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I personally believe we do have a soul, but I have not thought too
much in depth about how a soul works etc. Your post has certainly
inspired me to examine it more.
@Roadkill_Spatula@xanga - Yeah, I agree. Although the post touches on some really intriguing ideas, challenging the common Christian idea of the human soul is something that many will automatically dismiss unless you present a little more information(i.e. other common viewpoints regarding the soul, possible misconceptions of Biblical "soul" related terms, etc.).I personally would have loved to see a more in-depth explanation of the OP's belief.
I'm really impressed by this revelife entry.
I think the obsolete idea that our brains are just vague vessels for a dualistic/divine soul is a pretty primitive idea...we've broken down neurophysics so much and proven that certain areas of the brain have localized to perform specific functions of our personality, but we still live in an age where most people have the idea that the brain is just some nutshell that God puts our consciousness into.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - the only argument he seems to be making is that the Christian concept of immortality rests more on God's actions than on whether souls exist. i don't see why you want him to defend his personal beliefs, when they they are at best indirectly related to the topic at hand.
His discussion questions at the end have to do with the soul and what people believe about it, so it would seem to be directly related.
The Spirit tells me I have a soul, and that God knew me before He formed me.
The OP is obviously a moron! First, any idiot can tell the difference between a live body and a dead one.
What's the difference? SOUL
Second, the Jesus died, was resurrected and ascended. SOUL baby SOUL.
Who was Jesus talking to during the Transfiguration?
What did Jesus mean when, while dying on the Cross, he said he would see the the thief in paradise.
Like a homosexual who has finally seen the light and come out of the closet, Sir Nick has too. He's a God-hating leftist posing as a Christian. Sir Nick, YOU SUCK!!
I always knew you did, but now it's obvious to the anyone with a brain.
One of the reasons I am interested in the idea of the human soul is because I lean towards evolutionary creationism.
I have typically believed in the traditional Christian idea of an
immortal human soul. When holding to a literal interpretation of the
Biblical creation account, it can be quite easy to work with this idea.
If the creation of humans was a definite, instant event, it can more
easily be argued that humans are a unique species in that they have
souls that transcend a physical bodily existence.
From an evolutionary standpoint, however, the idea of an immortal soul
poses some difficulties like at what point did humankind begin having a
human soul? Or did/do all creatures have a soul? At what point did the
souls of humankind need redeeming?
Again, good though provoking post. Just wish you had more to say about it!
@Pashe@xanga - As a martial arts instructor I teach several techniques in meditation. If you've posted posts on techniques that I've not yet learned I'd be very interested in reading them. Drop me a link please.
@subSacred@xanga - one of the best (but most subjective) ideas i've heard regarding that is that the best evolutionary evidence for a soul is the brain's ability to perceive things not actually there. it can be argued that unlike animals, we have imaginations.
I think consciousness is our soul, and our personality is the result of our experience in the world using our soul as a base.
I agree with the blogger and I especially appreciate the second to last paragraph. I think the primary christian message is "We....are given our lives back again by God just as we were given them by God in the first place."
If I recognize the sacrifice of Jesus and the promise of resurrection, do I HAVE to believe in the soul? I agree on these two points just like any other christian, we just disagree on the details.
I don't know if I'm disagreeing or agreeing with the OP, but I do think that when we die, we die. I think that souls are eternal, but in a sense, are also recyclable (basically, reincarnation). I haven't thought too deeply into this, so if people want to punch holes in my theory, feel free.
I think that essentially, souls are energy. Since energy cannot be destroyed, it makes scientific sense that a soul would live forever... But I don't think there can be any sort of heaven or hell, at least not those inspired by Christianity. Morality is subjective, and sins that would have surely banned a person from heaven in the past is not necessarily one that would now, etc. So, after we die, our soul or personal energy is perhaps injected into a new life that is born, and the soul can take the shape of the new person it is inhabiting. Haha, that sounds really new-agey, but it makes sense to me.
"What do you think? Do you believe humans have souls? "
As a christian I believe in Body, Soul and Spirit.
"If so, how is a
soul best defined?"
I would define a soul as a personality created from the experiences on earth.
Unlike the body, the soul is eternal, much like the spirit,which is what I find difficult to describe.
"Did your soul exist before you were born?"
From a biblical point of view it is not very clear if it did. The bible only says that "God KNEW us before we where formed in our mother's womb", and Jesus said: "Before the days of Abraham I am" suggesting that He was before Abraham was.
"What
will happen to your soul after your body dies?"
Christians believe that man's soul will ascend to heaven before the throne of God, and be judged.
If/When they enter into heaven they will get a new body, and like on earth be body, soul, and spirit again.
Their new bodies may not be bodies made out of perishable, aging flesh, but be eternal bodies,like angels or more..
Their souls, as being their own identities will remain too.
I describe a soul as the real you!
It determines if you prefer red over green, sweet over salty, big cars over small, sports over computers, or whatever preferences you have build in your life.
You see, some people love doing things they are not so good at.
Others only love to do the things they are good at!
That joy into doing what you love, is a result of the choices that the soul makes.
I'd say a spirit is best described as a strong emotion with a thought combined together, that can be so strong that it can compel humans to go beyond their boundaries, be it for good, or for evil.
Despite some people's souls getting really upset at someone who does wrong to them, a human spirit, especially when linked to God), can give you the strength to overcome those feelings, and still not lash out in anger.
There are 3 reasons why a human can choose not to 'return the favor' to someone who does bad to you:
1- When tradition and etiquette requires you, or when you have enough common sense to understand the consequences, and with a rational mind make the decision to hold back
2- Out of fear of the consequences ( = demonic)
3- Out of love for the person ( = a heavenly quality)
Do you believe humans have souls? - The bible says we have a soul.
If so, how is a soul best defined? - One of the definitions given in Thayers Greek lexicon is - The soul as
an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death.
Did your soul exist before you were born? - No. In the book of Genesis it says that God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
What will happen to your
soul after your body dies? - Paul said - "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
@silentwhim@xanga - The soul is life. Consiousness is a function of the body. A bacteria has life but no consciousness.
A dog and cat can love and act upon their love, but they are bound by their natures as cat and dog.
It is only man who has intellect and free will and who can love freely and completely.
Can I assume that you hold to man as Tripartite? This is the only way this post can stay within heterodoxy if you don't..
If we are talking souls as that fourth dimensional form of ourselves that is like the shadow of Peter Pan then I wouldn't be in turmoil if we conclude the soul does not exist. I would still believe the Creator God could raise me back to life. Though I do believe in the human soul and yet I have a hard time describing what I find it to be. Life-force is one of the better terms I've heard connected with the term.
I'm not convinced my soul existed before the rest of me began forming inside my mother. I do believe it will be raised when I am raised to be with Christ though. But, I also believe in the twinkling of an eye I'll transform from this body to a spiritual one.
This is going to be a long comment. According to Buddhism we exist eternally, before and after this life. We even choose our challenges before we are born and we are born with our abilities and challenges based on past lives. Buddhism speaks of the law of cause and effect, saying if you want to know the causes you've made in the past, observe your life in the present and if you want to know what your life will be like in the future, observe the causes you are making in the present.
One doesn't have to learn much about the world of quantum physics to see that our day to day perception of the world is jaded. In reality everything is in a constant flux. Even the subatomic particles of a rock disappear and are replenished nano second by nano second, yet some glue holds it all together so that if we look at the rock, turn our backs on it, then look at it again it still looks the same. The same is true for our bodies.
Something else to think about is that the mind does not have color nor form, yet we cannot deny its existence because thoughts constantly occur to it.
Something more to think about, look at a pictures of yourself when you were 6 or 7 years old, when you were 12 years old, when you were 18 years old and so on. Your appearance has changed dramatically. Did a woman in her 70s ever show you a picture of herself when she was 18 and you explain almost in shock, "Wow you were beautiful"? Our appearance changes so much that we become unrecognizable from the pictures of the distant past and yet we fundamentally remain the same person inside.
Then back to physics we know that energy cannot be destroyed. Granted the amount of electrical energy our bodies produce in a lifetime would be barely enough to cook a hot dog but that's not the only form of energy.
I'm going to share a very personal story I shared with a friend a couple of weeks ago. It's lengthy and of course experiential but I think it is worth sharing for this subject. Every piece of the story has relevance to the overall experience. It still brings up emotions although it happened over a decade ago.
I was dating a beautiful girl who I first met while playing a gig. I was a musician. She was a friend of a friend of a friend. The morning after I met her I could not get her out of my mind and called my friend to get her friend's number so that I could ask her for this girl's phone number. It was a precarious situation at best but my friend and her friend, who I had met a few times, apparently trusted me and I was given the cherished phone number. I called the girl. There had been strong electricity the night before and she was happy that I called her. We started seeing each other. 6 months later she went to see her doctor because she had a nagging cough. Her doctor told her she probably had a chest cold but sent her for x-rays just in case. As it turned out she had a rare form of lung cancer called andocarcinoma. Not endo, ando. She wasn't a smoker and she was very healthy, eating only organic food. She didn't want to go through chemo and an oncologist said chemo would not help. She chose an alternative program. I spent every moment I could with her. I went to appointments with her. I did her shopping for her. I cooked for her but mostly I spent time just being with her. She was Jewish. I hadn't met her family before she was diagnosed with cancer because she believed her parents would never accept me as I am a Buddhist.
To let you know how much I tried to support her, I left her apartment one evening to buy some things for her at Whole Foods, an organic store in Manhattan. I was standing on a corner waiting to cross the street when I felt very hungry. I thought about what I had for lunch and remembered I didn't have lunch. Then I asked myself what I'd had for breakfast and realized I hadn't eaten breakfast. As I checked off I realized the last time I had eaten was breakfast the morning before. That speaks to how much I was focused on caring for her in any way I could. I prayed for her whenever I could and she actually prayed with me but in the end she died only 9 weeks after her diagnosis. Cancer btw is often more aggressive in young people because their metabolisms are higher.
Her parents: When I arrived at the Synagogue where her funeral was to take place her mother came up to me with her three sons standing behind her she said the most precious words I've ever heard, words I will never forget. "I and my family are eternally grateful for all that you did for my daughter". She took my hand in hers and kissed it as one might do to royalty. I can't imagine anything more humbling. My feeling was that I was helpless in keeping her daughter even though nothing was my fault. I wondered for a while why my prayers had not been answered. A mother speaking those words was to me beyond anything I could imagine. My girlfriend's father later called me his son. Her mother called me many times to meet for lunch so we could talk about her daughter. They had truly accepted me into their family.
When someone dies in the Jewish religion the family "sits Shivah". Basically it seemed to me that it was a tradition where people visit the home of those who lost a loved one. I don't really know everything about it but I was there for this one. It was there that I was approached by 5 or 6 of Amy's girlfriends. My girlfriend's name was Amy. They asked me if I was free the following weekend because they wanted to hold a special memorial. I told them I would have to look at my schedule to see and that I would try to be there but wasn't sure if I could. One of the girls said, "No, let us know when you can be there because we want to have it in your honor.
I'm not telling you this to brag about how great a person I am. Not only do I know many people would have done the same if a loved one is sick but I felt horrible that somehow my prayers for her recovery were not answered. I blamed my lack of faith.
I'm going to skip around a bit on the timeline. After Amy's death I was totally distraught. I prayed and prayed to somehow know that Amy was ok wherever she was but how could someone know that? I also prayed to somehow know that we were still connected. I actually wanted to die so that I could be with her. I still felt her body and smelled her scent in my mind. I just wanted to know she was somehow ok. My faith in life was definitely being tested.
Amy's mom called me a day before the funeral to ask if I could get a specific dress from Amy's apartment for her funeral. It was heart wrenching to do but I went to her apartment, having had the keys, and found the dress. As I sat on the subway on my way back home I felt as if someone was poking me in the shoulder and I could almost see someone in front of me. The car was not crowded. There were people sitting across from me but nobody standing in front of me. As the poking continued I thought to myself quite seriously, "This is Amy" but immediately afterwards said to myself, "No, it's just my imagination". I figured my mind was doing something natural to console me in this type of situation.
Back at the funeral...after it was finished a girl came up to me and introduced me as one of Amy's friends. I recognized the name but had never met her. She handed me her phone number and asked me to call her. I didn't for several days. My mind and body were in distress. Then one evening I remembered her card in my wallet and called her. She answered and said, "I can't believe you called me! What made you call?" I was taken by surprise by her question and told her simply, "You asked me to call you". She said "You don't understand". Before I finish this part of the story I want to tell you that I don't put much faith in "channelers". Maybe that's wrong but I know there are a lot of sham artists out there so when she started telling me she is a channeler I thought to myself, "oh no here we go", until she explained that channeling a friend usually doesn't work because of the emotional attachments and more importantly went on to tell me that despite of that she was able to channel Amy earlier that day and Amy told her that she had to get in touch with me to tell me she knows I see her and knows I feel her but I am telling myself it is my imagination. She said Amy wanted me to know it's not my imagination, that it is her. The words struck me because I had said those very words to myself on the subway when I thought I felt and saw her.
None the less when we got off the phone I dismissed it as something one could probably say to anyone who is grieving and still be on target.
Going back in time again...apart from our first dinner at a restaurant, the first date we had was going to the Central Park Zoo. We had a great time watching the playful seals getting fed and going through the rest of the zoo. I never thought a zoo could be so romantic but it was for us. Not much later, Amy took me to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I had been there before but she knew the place like the back of her hand. She loved art. She was so excited to show me this exhibit and that exhibit. There is a section of the museum at its north side which is enclosed in glass. It looks from the outside like a greenhouse but inside are ancient Egyptian structures that had been transported piece meal from Egypt and rebuilt. When we were in that place she told me she could easily imagine me as a pharoah (or something like that) in those days, holding audiences on those stones.
Fast forwarding...I went with her to one of her MRIs. The office was on the east side and she lived on the west side. She wanted to walk through Central Park. We came upon a restaurant in the park that sits on a lake where people can rent row boats. In my years in Manhattan I had never before come across this restaurant. She said to me, "When I'm better I want to take you here. It's beautiful to sit there".
Shortly after she died I received a call from a fellow musician. He told me that something had come up for another musician and asked if I was free to play at a wedding at a restaurant called "The Boathouse Cafe". I was available and that Saturday I followed his directions into Central Park. It wasn't until I stood in front of the restaurant that I realized it was the same that Amy wanted to take me to. Naturally my heart became yet heavier. I mentioned the coincidence to my fellow musicians and they were sympathetic. The next day I received a call asking if I could perform in just two weeks for a private banquet to mark the opening of a new exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I was available and took the gig. When I arrived that evening one of the musicians was waiting for me at the door. I told him about my girlfriend and the coincidence of performing here after having played for a wedding at the restaurant. I even joked that the next place I'll be playing is the Central Park Zoo. To my surprise, one of the organizers led us through the new exhibit of Indian art and out to the Egyptian greenhouse. The stage was butted against the structure on which Amy had said she could imagine me. I'd be lying to you if I said it wasn't a *wow* moment but still the skeptic in me toned it down in my mind as much as I could.
The very next night I answered the phone. It was another famous musician calling to ask me if I would be available to play at a dinner for the society to preserve Bengal Tigers. When he told me the gig was to be held at the Central Park Zoo I almost dropped the phone.....and I accepted.
There were even more experiences involving Amy but the 3 gigs were neither here say nor possible machinations of the mind. They actually happened and what are the chances? Especially considering the instrument I played is called "Sitar", an instrument from northern India which many consider to be the most difficult, complex and arduous instrument in the world. I do and don't agree with that assessment but regardless...I went on to perform at among many other places, Lincoln Center and the Smithsonian. Still, the most profound performances for me took place at The Boathouse Cafe, The Met, and the Central Park Zoo.
Whether or not someone could think, and justifiably so, that in spite of the odds those gigs were mere coincidence there is some things I learned. One thing that could still be arguable is that there is a thin veil between life and death which we are for the most part blinded from seeing through. More important is the gift she gave me. It is as if she came into my life to show me that death is nothing to be afraid of. She faced it courageously and, at least in my mind, showed me that death is not the end. I will never forget that gift and yet but is more. She showed me that faith doesn't let us down even when it seems to. I know in the core of my being that Amy came into my life as a gift to teach me a most precious lesson. She would have died had we never met. It was her compassion for me that had drawn us together at the untimely end of her life. And you know, before I met her I would sit through romantic movies or romantic comedies and be bored to death. I would see someone crying on the news because of a murdered loved one or because someone died in a fire and not get emotional myself but ever since Amy died I feel tears for everyone. I can feel empathy with others. There is no greater gift that I can imagine and perhaps that was my judgement day. God saw my arrogance and sent someone to me who could destroy my lesser self and reveal my true self and what I now believe to be the true nature of life and death. For that I am deeply grateful. I wasn't responsible for her death. On the contrary, that she came to me at that time in her life was a great gift, the gift of being able to have tears in my eyes for someone else. How wonderful and how indebted I am and will always be to her.
One last thing, if you made it this far...I'll never know but in Buddhism we believe in reincarnation. About a year and a half, maybe two years after Amy died I went to the home of a Buddhist couple from Japan. They had a baby who was about a year old. When I entered their apartment the baby smiled and got all excited, even reached for me. Her parents were astonished because the baby had never acted with so much enthusiasm around anyone. Again, I'll never know but you can guess the thought that ran through my mind.