Whoa whoa whoa! Who said that God already knew what was going to happen?

@golai@xanga -  The danger in abandoning a structured gathering of believers for worship, prayer, fellowship and exhortation is that we typically do so because we want to do "church" on our own terms, we don't want to be subject to anything too much bigger than us. We get to pick our favorite Christians, our favorite passages, and all the other things we liked in traditional Church or didn't get in traditional Church, and personalize it as much as we can so that we can avoid BS, red tape, and Church politics. I believe dealing with some of the headaches you come across in a structured, traditional Church setting is what can help us grow as both individuals and Church communities, and brings us closer to seeing each other through God's eyes, and loving each other as we should. To opt out of humble submission to a structured, intentional body of believers is opting out of the very purpose of the body of Christ. Therefore, in such a case, it is a cop out.

@subSacred@xanga - submission?  Leaving a church has nothing to do with submission or discontent.  I believe that there are times God wants us to move on.  However, the attitude held by most "established" churches is that anyone who leaves is immature and looking for an easy way out.  

@Pickwick12@xanga - No, I don't believe that's a limitation.  My understanding is that God knows the future as potential, which is to say that God knows every possible future that could come about, and is no less prepared to deal with one or another of them. 

The basic idea goes back to a Jesuit named Molina, who believed that God not only knows everything that is, but everything that might be.  What would have happened if George Washington had died of polio as an infant?  We can speculate, but God knows exactly what would have happened, and every variable possibility that follows from that.  It fits very conveniently with the openness view, and with passages throughout the Bible where God says, "I expected you to do this [it was likely Israel would repent], but you did not [Israel took the unlikely path]."  But never was God unprepared to deal with that unlikely circumstance.  And, as you say, there are some future events of which God can say with certainty will come about: because when God makes up his mind to do something, such as win a bride, there is no power that can prevent it.

Calvinists in particular (though there are Molinist Calvinists) find this kind of open view insulting to God (Giesler still calls open theism "finite godism"), but I think the opposite is true.  The Calvinist view of God emphasizes his power, dominance and control, while the open

view highlights his wisdom, flexibility and relationality. 

@golai@xanga - Ha I do know what you mean. I recently left the Church I had attended for 6 years, because long story short it was time to move on, and some folks made it sound like I was leaving Christ's Church altogether. Despite my expressed intentions to find another Church body, people couldn't get past the idea that I was leaving their body, therefore I was leaving the Church. So don't get me wrong, I think there can be good reasons to leave a Church, and even be without an established Church body for a while.

But there are many who leave Churches because of issues of submission or discontent, and that always drives me nuts. My previous comment was in reference to those who intentionally leave structured Church altogether because they think they can do something better hanging out at home with a few friends or at a coffee shop. Although I believe that wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there with them, I also believe it is much more healthy and productive for the Body of Christ at large for us to be involved in already existing fellowships rather than breaking Church down into little poorly organized cliques of believers. Leaving Churches in order to dodge structure, certain people, and accountability has been a growing trend in my neck of the woods, and I have yet to see how it has benefited anyone. I do know house Churches or other informal, loosely organized Church gatherings can serve a purpose in some cases. Many of the largest Churches out there started as house Churches. I suppose it is all about intentions.

If people want to start their own form of Church just to escape from the people in their current Church, they have got the whole idea of Church wrong. And as the post points out, if God puts up with us, who do we think we are to not put up with each other?

You know why the Israelites built the golden calf? Because they were slaves in Egypt and always saw who was ahead of them, and saw the Gods of the Egyptians. So coming out of Egypt they were all very young to the idea the unseen God. But they received word from God through Moses, so when he left, they went back to what they knew before. Kinda reminds me of the christians today who don't see God clearly and then go back to their sinful ways. No God does not get disillusioned, because we can see throughout the entire bible how God prepares everything, He is very strategic. So the better question is are we disillusioned to what God is doing and teaching?