Saturday, 31 October 2009

  • Women, Feminism, and Church Iconography

    Women, Feminism, and Church Iconography Feminists are often quick to denounce that women are portrayed one of two ways: virgin or slut, and they especially don't like virgin. Despite the prominence of Mary in the Catholic faith, feminists claim it is anti-woman because it holds up Mary, a virgin, as the ideal for women. How dare there be an ideal held up?!

    Well, let's think about this. Mary plays a very important role in salvation history and has perhaps the deepest relationship of anyone with the Trinity. She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. Her very being ties her up with each of God's persons in the Trinity. That is amazing. That elevates a woman over any other human.

    Ah, but the feminists say that pushes women into a certain mode of behavior.

    Perhaps.

    But what about the men? The New Testament also holds up an ideal for men. Jesus. Is it okay for a male ideal figure but not a woman? I'm just saying, let's be fair here: Yes the Bible holds up standards for women. It also holds up standards for men.

    (Oh, and yes, Peter falters but is still a disciple. And to be fair, Mary Magdalene too falters, but turns away from her sin, as Peter did).

    Seriously, sometimes standards are a good thing. That is, if you dare to consider the nature of good and enter into serious philosophical discourse.

    So what is your opinion? Are women held to different standards?

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Comments (44)

  • Ancient_Scribe@xanga

    Brave post, dear sister; I hope those commenting after me are kind to you! God bless you!
  • SirNickDon@xanga

    Any feminist who cannot find a positive ideal to hold up in Mary is ideologically blinded.  True, she was a virgin, but she had good reason, seeing as she was thirteen or so.  She showed a remarkable strength of character and held remarkable poise considering the situation, especially when compared to the patriarchal figure a few verses back, who protested and stammered so much the angel cursed him to silence till his kid was born. 

    Heck, Mary's song is a treasure-trove of feminist ideals, about God bring down the self-exalted and living in those society deems weak. 

    Mary is a beautiful ideal for women, even feminists.
  • Parsimony@xanga

    When I read the testament, I don't consider the characteristics or virtues of the people in the scriptures maybe because they don't highlight or flaunt them.


    As a modern woman, I don't think feminism rejects chastity per se but it leaves it open for women to have social equalities of men and it just so happens most men are not virgins.
  • deepestrecesses

    We all have the same standard (even if we refuse to accept that standard; "every knee will bow"). 


    haha, I will put into practice the "Proverbs of blogging" posted yesterday and not voice my opinions about the Feminists.

  • Katja88@xanga

    No, women aren't all virgins or sluts in the Bible--they're barren or whores.  OT and NT.    But seriously, women have just as much to offer in the Bible as men.  They're not all perfectly obedient and they have a lot to say if you can find them.  I think everyone should work to emulate Jesus, but for some, that's easier when looking through the lens of, say, Paul or Mary.  Up to you.
  • Parsimony@xanga

    @Katja88@xanga - But they seem to only bring up the ones that are.  So in some ways they are promoting certain virtues and discouraging certain vices.
  • salvatruca_stalking_havok13@xanga

    Yes, woman are held to different standards. I don't see men in the Bible being praised for their "purity" and "chastity", only women. It's ridiculous that only women have to live up to that ideal, or any ideal for that matter. Feminism is about being able to choose, so of course an ideal for women seems silly to us. We can't choose to be who we want to be if we have to follow guidelines that have already been set.

    Mary was an amazing woman, yes, but she wasn't the only amazing woman in the Bible. Instead of establishing Mary as who women should be, how about praising all of the great women in the Bible for their strengths? They were all so different yet so powerful in their own way. Emphasize that, the differences that still allowed them to be strong.

  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    i want to echo the comment before me.  i can't think of a single male in the Bible who was praised for being an untouched virgin... not even Jesus, who most Christians like to assume never had sex. 

    and since when is virginity a virtue?  i've known some absolutely horrible women in my life...... they were like that long before they had sex.  i'd rather be praised for my intelligence, ambition, or big heart.  and if remaining a virgin is such an accomplishment for some women, it means they're ridiculously slutty at heart... not something to be proud about.
  • MissPixieGlitter@xanga

    the male ideal isn't defined by his sexuality. props to the two comments above.
  • Monki_D@xanga

    but Mary was only a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth.  Jesus had brothers (maybe sisters as well).  So there isn't anything more "saintly" in being a virgin.


    All of us are to hold to an ideal!  Our ideal is perfection, to which God calls us.  And since woman and men aren't exactly the same in every single way, we have different ways of living that out. 


    I'm still trying to figure out the statement about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit.  I'm assuming that you get that from the statement that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit.  But doesn't that mean that Martha is also a spouse to the Spirit, and all the women in the OT that God helped bear children.  I feel a bit iffy about that idea...
  • scrambledmegsntoast@xanga

    I think Mary's virginity is being misconstrued by some. As @SirNickDon@xanga - said, her virginity was important because she was 13. I think asking virginity of 13-year-olds is not a bad thing. Beyond that, even non-Christian belief systems place value on the sanctity of sex, and marriage. Mary had fidelity to her husband--the Holy Spirit, yes, but the Church itself.

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - So if I am a virgin, I am a slut? I don't understand your reasoning.
  • scrambledmegsntoast@xanga

    @Monki_D@xanga - You are misunderstanding the uses of the words "brothers" and "sisters". Christians today call each other "brother" and "sister" all the time. @Ancient_Scribe@xanga - just called the OP "sister" in this very post. Are we to assume they are from the same mother?

    Mary had no other children.
  • Ancient_Scribe@xanga

    @Monki_D@xanga - Referring to Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit is an ancient tradition. I imagine it has a great deal to do with the fact that Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, and it was by the Holy Spirit that she conceived Him. Being that it was according to God that children should not be conceived out of wedlock, Mary's Fiat is also seen as an "I do" of sorts, consecrating her life to God, to be the mother of their Child, not merely a surrogate womb or adoptive parent. This is not to say that God and Mary "had sex" (a popular accusation/misconception). Her "marriage" and her conceiving by the Holy Spirit was not sexual.


    Regarding her perpetual viriginity: looking at Mary's relationship to God in this light, as being the Mother of the Son of God and consecrating herself to Him, it would be necessary to remain a life-long virgin lest she break this covenant, essentially committing adultery against the Father of Her Son.


    @scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - Every time someone is brave enough to talk about Mary on here, I cringe each time I check my email. Happy All Hallow's Eve, sister! Oh, and because you understand why I call you sister, you can safely assume that you and I, as well as the OP, have the same Mother. Isn't it great?
  • Katja88@xanga

    @Parsimony@xanga - Go read again.  Barren or prostitutes.  Seriously.
  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    @scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - you're kidding, right?  i said that if remaining a virgin is such an accomplishment for some, it means they're so filled with lust it takes a ridiculous amount of effort to maintain that virtue.  and that's just pathetic.  
  • Ancient_Scribe@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Wow... so all women who are proud to be virgins are sluts at heart? May I recommend your comment to those virgins I am friends with, to see if they agree with you? As a virgin myself (granted, a man, but virginity is virginity), I disagree completely.
  • Ancient_Scribe@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I see I missed your response by a minute; thank you for clarifying. You are right; maintaining one's virginity is extremely difficult in today's world, and most especially struggling to maintain the purity of one's heart and mind. You are right in pointing out that there are some who are proud virgins and yet decidedly not virgins in their hearts, like when Jesus talks about the outside of the vessels being clean while the insides remain filthy.


    But there are those virgins who are not sluts at heart, and I would contend the majority of virgins are not. They struggle, certainly, but struggling is far superior to giving in. They do not maintain their virginity to boast about it, but because they love Jesus Christ. As one who is in year 26 of what is likely to be a life-long virginity, I promise you that with the grace of God through Jesus Christ, virginity inside and out is possible, though it is a constant battle, and the battle is completely worth it. 
  • scrambledmegsntoast@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - 

    and since when is virginity a virtue?

    If you wanted to only refer to "remaining a virgin" and "some women", then what does the general concept of virginity as a virtue have to do with anything? So to answer your question, no I am not "kidding".
  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    @Ancient_Scribe@xanga - it wasn't difficult at all for me to keep my virginity until i felt okay with losing it.  i don't think it's anything to be praised, and i'd rather be complimented on the things in my life that i actually had to struggle for and work hard to achieve.  i think it's demeaning to women to say that the highest virtue they can aspire to--above a career, education, strong friendships, etc--is managing to not have sex.  especially when we do not hold men to the same standard. 

    if a woman considers her virginity to be her highest virtue, i can only assume it takes every ounce of effort to maintain it........ like someone struggling with alcoholism works to avoid alcohol, or someone on a diet works to avoid fast food.  that's what i mean by being slutty at heart.  
  • Monki_D@xanga

    @Ancient_Scribe@xanga - sorry, I made a few name mistakes in my last comment.  I understand, and agree, that the Holy Spirit did not have sex with Mary.  But God helped a lot of women have children in the past, though I must say, not through a virigin birth.  Could one not say that the Holy Spirit hand His hand there as well and therefore, there is a shared "fathership" with those children and "co-spouse" with those women?  (maybe I take this too far).


    secondly, marriage is when two become one flesh.  That means that the Holy Spirit becomes one flesh with Mary?  And since Mary cannot be perfect "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," does that not mean that the Holy Spirit is tainted by sin?  And if the Holy Spirit is tainted by sin, would not the entire Trinity be tainted as well, therefore, making the sacrifice of Jesus nulled since Jesus is now tainted with sin as well? 


    Sorry, bunch of questions.  I would just like to know where this understanding comes from 
  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    @scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - i don't think virginity is something to aspire to above all else.  Mary should be a role model simply because she decided to be/do something and worked hard to maintain that.  all women can find inspiration in that, without necessarily wanting to be/do the same thing.  
  • scrambledmegsntoast@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - OK, that is fair. But virginity can be a "virtue" without being held above all other things. As a Catholic, I know we don't hold Mary's virginity above the fact that she is the mother of God, mother of the Church, co-redemptrix, and the 13-year-old girl who said “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.” It is part of who she is, but not the only reason for her to be a role model.
  • naphtali_deer@xanga

    The main lesson we find in Mary as in all the saints (both OT & NT) and God's people throughout the years is this: You have found favor with God...For nothing will be impossible w/ God.

    All God's grace! All God's power! Apart from that Mary was nothing. Apart from that we are nothing.
  • Pinkglitterangel@xanga

    The Bible itself is very fair. Jesus is the best example for both man and women considering the fact that He was a virgin too and all the thigns that He did on earth, we are to do the same. Mother Mary is a nice example like all the other prophets and followers of Jesus. Jesus on the other hand tried to change the way men treated women back in the time. There are many women in the book of Mathew that got healed. People today have set double standards. Especially in the country where i come from women are not expected to be pastors. The pastors try to prove it from the bible that the women were not called to preach, which is a very bias way of thinking. How can men think that they are the only ones called to spread the word of God. Its quite unfair for the women in our culture, but now the women have become accustomed to it and so whenever they see a lady pastor, a woman of God with out a head scarf, a woman of God with make up or jewellry the illitrate (and sometimes literate ones too) women from the audience just walk  upto you and condemn you. The men have made them believe that it is necessary for a women to cover her head and if you dont..they will check you for not doing it.


    I usually have an answer for such people, i believe that its not the outward appearance that matters but the heart that the Lord sees...I'm sorry im completely off track and not exactly replying to your question here. But this is upon my heart, women in church are considered second in everything. Its a men dominated church in our country. My mother's a Pastor now and so now we are on our way to change the way a lot of people think. The Lord mightily uses my mother for His glory and i thank God for giving us an equal share.


    There is no man no woman in the presence of the Lord, we all become followers of Christ and to follow Him rightly is all that matters. Jesus is a set example for all mankind. ( MAN/WOMAN)
  • TheGreatBout@xanga

    Aren't we all to imitate Jesus? I never thought Mary was the standard for women. Though, she was righteous in many ways. So was Rahab, and Esther. So was David and Abraham. Can we agree the shared factor is faith in the One True God? Can we agree that Jesus is the overall model for humanity?

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