By Matt at The Church of No People
Christians love to argue.
I think we like to argue with each other, just to take a break from arguing with non-Christians.
Christians often times like to try to 'prove' Christianity to non-believers. It makes so much sense! Here look at all these amazing reasons Jesus rules! Sometimes we do it out of love, sometimes we get heated and just have to vindicate ourselves.
The problem is, most of the arguments relied on by pastors and used by people are crutches that are super-lame, illogical, and don't work.
First, you will
never convince someone of the truth of Christianity. That's something only God himself can do. But if you find yourself in an intellectual conversation about the truthiness of the Bible, please don't say any of these things...
Five Lame Ways to Prove ChristianityThe WagerThe wager Christians like to pull out with non-believers is
'What if Christianity is true and you end up going to hell for not believing?' Sounds solid enough, because hell is a bad place to go and seems a good motivation for turning to Jesus. Except that most people don't like to be
threatened into doing something. That's like terrorists making a guy renounce America under threat of beheading. We all know those terrorists are lame.
Besides, basing your beliefs on what amounts to a
gamble to avoid hell probably isn't going to impress God.
God: "So why do you think you should be in heaven?"Dead Guy: "Well, I thought there was at least a 50/50 shot of me going to hell unless I became a Christian. So it looks like I gambled correctly! Can I have my welcome basket now?"God: "Release the hounds."Everyone believes in God!Well, not everyone. Atheists for one, Buddhists for another. That's like least a billion people right there.
Christians like to say that belief in God is in almost everyone's heart, so to not believe in Him is arrogant and against human nature. But Christians are notorious for fudging the numbers with baptisms and church memberships, so it figures they'd gloss over a billion atheists on the planet.
Besides, this argument goes directly against what your mother said to you when all your friends were doing stupid things,
"If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?" Just because a bunch of idiots do this or believe that, it doesn't make it
not stupid.
C.S. Lewis makes a great argument for God's existence, using this method, but starts with the inherant
ethics of the human heart, and then works his way to God. It's amazing, and I suggest you read
Mere Christianity.You can't prove God doesn't exist.You can't prove He
does exist.
You just fell into the trap the atheist would like to set you in, but it's a stupid trap for both people. If we're going on proof based on our five senses, we wouldn't know anything! I can't prove the existence of germs, London, or the President based on my five senses!
Just drop this one entirely. It's lame.
Hitler was an Atheist!Maybe. Maybe he thought he was God's agent.
The point of bringing up Hitler, I think is to say that atheists have no morals.
Which isn't true. Most atheists are lovely people. As I said before, C.S. Lewis says that everyone has morals, and that's what proves God (eventually).
Atheists just have no
reason for their morals. That's something I'll never understand. Why should I care about rain forests or Africans or free trade coffee or be a vegan if this life is all there is?
Second, plenty of terrible people have claimed to be Christians. Wouldn't that disprove Christianity? I don't think we want to bring up Christianity's solid history of good deeds to prove anything.
You just need faith!Are you a child? Do you really think there is
no proof for Christ other than suspending your adult intellect and injecting that feel-good drug of praise music and prosperity gospel to help numb the pain of life?
You don't need to tell someone they need faith. Faith is produced by God working in an unbeliever's heart apart from their desire to have faith. It will happen whether they want it to or not. Meanwhile, stop with the lame arguments.
What are your best reasons for faith in Christ? What are some of the lamest you've heard?
Comments (72)
man, this is a great post.
Atheists just have no reason for their morals. That's something I'll never understand. Why should I care about rain forests or Africans or free trade coffee or be a vegan if this life is all there is?
who says we don't have reason? our reasons are just more personal, and most of us don't seek to impose them on everyone else. i believe morality is subjective. so if i do good, it's for the betterment of the world around me and after me. and because i would like to leave this earth (even if slightly) better than when i got here.
personally, i think afterlife is a selfish, horrible reason to do good deeds. if i am good so i can go to heaven, i'm just trying to save my own ass. doing good out of fear is not truly doing good. the actions may have good consequences, but the motive is sycophantic. it takes a lot to believe that "this life is all there is" and still act as one deems good.
I think it is unwise to explain your faith, or anything else, based upon only one argument. Any one of these arguments can have a place depending upon the context of the discussion and the audience. So can about a million other arguments. Discussion is far more complex than just use these arguments, don't use these.
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - Assuming that Christians do good only because of the reward of the afterlife is just as ignorant as assuming atheists don't have morals due to disbelief in the afterlife. You get Christians as well as you think they get you.
Amazing how none of those "strategies" actually involve sharing the Gospel with people. Many people are turned off to Christianity because of the belief about hell, but if they could actually understand WHY it exists and the true nature of sin and the life of Jesus Christ, maybe they would see things differently.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - sigh. i never made this argument towards "christians." i never even mentioned "christians" in my reply. i made it in response to the author for the statement i italicized in my comment.
again:
Atheists just have no reason for their morals. That's something I'll never understand. Why should I care about rain forests or Africans or free trade coffee or be a vegan if this life is all there is?
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga -
personally, i think afterlife is a selfish,
horrible reason to do good deeds. if i am good so i can go to heaven,
i'm just trying to save my own ass. doing good out of fear is not truly
doing good. the actions may have good consequences, but the motive is
sycophantic. it takes a lot to believe that "this life is all there is"
and still act as one deems good.
Spare me the sighs, please. I can read. This is a "Christian" community. Do not, for a moment, attempt to claim that you meant anything else but that which you clearly stated.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - are you seriously trying to tell me what i mean or don't mean? i go out of my way to avoid comments like "you christians..." or "you atheists..." i meant what i said, and i meant it in response to a claim by the OP that he does not understand why he should care if this life is all there is. your claim is that this isn't the only reason christians do good, and i didn't disagree with you. people have their reasons, and that's fine. however, an individual acting solely for the promise of afterlife is selfish. the author presents that as a main reason in his statement, and i refuted it.
anyway, my original comment wasn't meant for you. interpret as you please.
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - No, I am seriously trying to tell you that this is a Christian community and I am interpreting your comment based upon what your words mean. I have no idea what you intend to say, I can only read your words and assign the common definition to each. If you had written this in an interfaith community, then I would assign that context. But you did not, you wrote it in a Christian community in response to a post aimed at a Christian audience. It is rather disingenuous to now claim you meant to aim your comment at someone other than Christians.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - it is aimed at the person who wrote this post. if it weren't, i wouldn't have quoted him and tried to explain why i think he is wrong.
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - So the whole idea of other people commenting on comments should be removed? You should submit the removal of the "reply" link to Revelife for consideration in that case.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - i have no problem with you replying to my comment, you just weren't my target audience. you claimed i was attacking christians, and i am saying that my comment was directed only at the OP.
Actually, the Greeks proved the existence of God 2500 years ago. They did it through reason. Reason may be applied regardless of our senses.
Nevertheless, just as it is perfectly natural to be happy, it is perfectly natural to believe in God. Happiness and God are as natural to human beings as their own DNA.
Being unhappy is a learned behavior. You have to make effort to be unhappy. Likewise, non-belief in God.
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - No, I did not claim that you were "attacking" anyone. Now you are making assumptions based upon lack of both specific statements on my part and context. I stated that, based upon your comment, you do not understand Christians, that you are ignorant of why Christians do what they do.
@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - fair enough, you don't think i'm attacking anyone. but i never claimed to understand christians, nor did i make assumptions about them. my comment, in response to this particular post, was only based on the author saying that he does not understand "Why should [he] care ... if this life is all there is." i made those statements towards him, not christianity. you assumed it was towards christianity, and i have stated again and again that it was not.
i don't feel like these volleys are going anywhere. have a good day.
?? I do have reasons for my morals, even though I'm agnostic. It's taken many years, but after all my life experiences and education have taught me, I've pretty much settled on making the purpose of my life to make life less difficult for others while watching out for my own happiness.
I have a desire to make a positive impact on those around me, which I think is a good enough reason for my morals. Wouldn't you agree?
This is probably going to offend someone, but I get wary when I meet Christians who are volunteering for the same things I'm volunteering for. I know the only reason I volunteer is because I want to help people. Christians are ordered by their god to help people, and they think they face the threat of hell if they don't. Sure, some can honestly just want to help people and leave their god out of it, but the fact that they may have other interests in mind bothers me..
On another subject, did Revelife commit to making mostly non-controversial posts a few months ago?
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - Thank you so much for your comment.
First, the promise of an afterlife is a selfish reason to be a good person. The Jewish people are actually not conclusive in their concept of whether or not there is an afterlife. Yet they have a concept of bringing the Kingdom of God here to earth - a society of altruistic good deed doing. Christians would do well to imitate them - to do good for the sake of doing good because it's what God wants.
What I mean by atheist morality is exactly what you said. Your own desire to be a 'good' person is your only reason for doing anything you judge to be good. You come to this conclusion from your own reasoning on what is 'good' and what is 'bad.'
I say that atheists have no reason for their ethics because it comes from within. I ask, in as friendly a tone as possible, if there is no God, no objective source of 'right' and 'wrong,' then why do anything altruistic or loving? Why look out for my fellow man, even when it inconveniences me? Plenty of social Darwinists have lived this way, perfectly happy.
At the same time, 'InTheThin,' you point out that the threat of hell is the only reason Christians help anyone. This of course is not true, Christians are motivated by the example of Christ to help others, and I point out hell as a lousy reason to become a Christian. Christians believe one cannot earn heaven by doing good works.
I hope that clarifies my point of view. Thank you for welcoming me to the Revelife community with such passionate comments.
I'm Agnostic and I've heard a lot of these. At a certain point, you really can't convince someone to believe/not believe in something. Of course there are exceptions, but we should all just learn to get along and see past this "faith" boundary.
Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 7: 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
There is an old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." We can lead people by loving them to the "living water," which is Christ. Then we can give them sips of that water by sharing our own experiences with God. If they are ready, they will like the taste of those sips (the witness of the Holy Spirit) and perhaps desire more. If they are not ready then, there may come a time in their life when something will happen to cause them to remember and desire those sips again.
Once a person receives the Witness of the Holy Spirit, they must then "do his will" (or obey His commandments), which brings a further witness of the Holy Spirit growing stronger and stronger until the perfect day.
@InTheThin@xanga - Your right wanting to help others is a good reason! It is also true that "some" Christians offer themselves for service because they fear God. But as you note... Not all. My service is always done out of a genuine love for those in need. This virtue is taught consistently throughout the Scriptures. For a Christian to do good works in order to earn or merit Gods grace is not a consistent Scriptural view.
May I ask you, when it comes to your service is there anything "outside" of yourself that moves you to serve? By this I mean is there a source other than your subjective feelings that to serve is "right" that you could point to in order to show another person who might "feel" in their heart that not serving is fine also?
Grace and peace!
~Michael
@Matt @ The Church of No People - The only thing i might take issue with is where you write...
"Well, not everyone. Atheists for one, Buddhists for another. That's like least a billion people right there."
Paul tells us in Romans 1 starting at verse18.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
It is clear that all people believe in God generally but are actively suppressing it in their deprived natures..
Grace and peace!
~Michael
@MissPixieGlitter@xanga - May I ask you a question? You wrote "so if i do good, it's for the betterment of the world around me and after me. and because i would like to leave this earth (even if slightly) better than when i got here."
How can you be sure your making it better through your actions? How can you be sure that other things... Things you think are harmful are not actually the better things to do?
Grace and peace!
~Michael
@Matt @ The Church of No People - "I ask, in as friendly a tone as possible, if
there is no God, no objective source of 'right' and 'wrong,' then why
do anything altruistic or loving? Why look out for my fellow man, even
when it inconveniences me?"
Are you trying to say that without God, Christians have no reason to do anything altruistic or loving?
It scares me a lot to think that without God, you would do whatever you please without giving thought to others.
"Atheists just have no reason for their morals. That's
something I'll never understand. Why should I care about rain forests
or Africans or free trade coffee or be a vegan if this life is all
there is?"
i could flip that around and ask why Christians care about anything like that if:
1) this life ISN'T all there is?
2) entry to Heaven is based on faith, not act?
to me, believing in an afterlife makes this life nothing more than a cross between a test and a waiting room.