In case you've somehow missed it, S.C. Representative Joe Wilson, obviously a Republican, heckled President Barack Obama during his health care speech the other night, loudly shouting "You lie!" while the president spoke. He has since apologized, and Obama has accepted his apology. (Of course, all this makes Obama look better, so it was in his best interest to take the high road-just a little aside there.)
I believe Joe Wilson's conduct illustrated an ongoing issue for Conservatives, one that was present during Clinton's presidency but has been pushed to new heights during the current administration. I am referring to something I call the Respect Dilemma.
Very simply, what does it mean to express respect for someone who constantly acts in despicable ways? Where is the line, and how far is too far to go? Frankly, I fully agree with Joe Wilson. I believe President Barack Obama is a liar and a lot of other things that would sound equally pejorative on the floor of Congress. The question is, where is the overlap between telling it like it is and giving proper respect, and can one cancel out the other?
For Christians, I believe this is a valid question.
We serve a Lord who, though He was a common carpenter's son, called the religious and political leaders of His day "whitewashed tombs" and whose anointed cousin called them a "brood of vipers" to their faces (Matthew 3:7 and 23:27)
Sort of makes "You lie" sound pretty tame.
We also serve a Lord who inspired the Apostle Paul to write, in Romans 13:1: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established."
Clearly, the biblical norm is submissive cooperation with leadership that God has put in place.
HOWEVER
Big however. As I was reading that passage to include it in this post, I noticed something very interesting in the final verse.
Romans 13:7 "Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." What, exactly, incurs that debt of respect, and can anything negate it?
So here are some questions, question to which I don't have concrete answers:
- Do we owe Obama respect, or can a person's actions remove the debt of respect?
- Was Joe Wilson's outburst even disrespectful in the biblical sense?
- If it was, does Obama's his position warrant respect no matter what?
What do you think? I would really love to see some opinions.
Edit: My friend, who is an expert on House rules (a real one, as in, she works as legal counsel for the House of Representatives) said that the House chamber has a specific rule (since the founding fathers) against saying pejorative things about the president on the floor and that calling him a liar is strictly prohibited. On that ground, I definitely believe Wilson should have kept his mouth shut. I still want to hear other people's opinions on the overall issue.
Comments (117)
I agree with hardly any of Obama's policies, however, the presidential office as well as many other political leadership offices entail a great amount of responsibility and work. I think we should respect them even if we disagree with them because while they are doing the work most of us just sit back and do nothing.
Regardless of your opinion about the president's health care reform, the comment, "You lie!" about immigrants receiving free health care was incorrect. The president was not lying.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/
My dad and brother are both somewhat conservative, and they both have ROTC backgrounds. They say that even the disagree with most of the Democratic Party/Obama, it is VERY disrespectful to do that because you would never do that to a person of higher rank than you. The president is the Commander in Chief, therefore, the highest in command. And although Wilson is not in the army, he is in congress and should RESPECT the president's higher authority position.
Wilson's outburst was rude and childish, and would be in any situation. It is especially disrespectful to attack the leader of your nation that way. And what is even worse is that Wilson is a political figure himself.
And if there are rules about how one is to behave in such situations, you ought to obey those rules. Again, grown adult politician...we're not talking about some 16 year old who wandered in off the streets. There's no excuse.
I agree with all of the previous comments. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with the president's statements; the fact that he is the leader of the country means he deserves a certain amount of respect. I also think that outbursts like the one Joe Wilson made do not help his cause. If he believes what Obama says is wrong, it's his right and responsibility as a Congressman to explain why in a forum conducive to that sort of dialogue, not to shout insults.
@modernmelody - I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. It's sad that my 8th grade students are more respectful in a discussion than a Congress member.
What Joe Wilson does accurately represents the current state of the Republican Party--they shout a lot of nonsense to confuse us all and make it hard for anyone to make informed decisions. I may have held some respect for Wilson if he had at least screamed "You lie" when Obama was actually lying, but he didn't want to expose the president for what he was--he wanted to cause a fuss and make some noise.
Now, I don't like the health care reform bill as it stands (its bunk without the public option which probably won't make it through), but that does not excuse anyone from the kind of behavior that Joe Wilson and the Republican party have taken part in. Besides, they're the reason the one good part of the bill is probably not going to be included.
Joe Wilson was fucking hilarious.
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - You lie!
It was innappropriate. I have been sorely disappointed with conservative attitudes since Obamas take-over. I'm against Obama's policies, I have written all of my representatives multiple times and encourage everyone else to get involved by writing their representatives as well; the disregard that Obama and the liberal representatives have for their constituents is painful, NONTHELESS, America elected Obama and we (even we who did not vote for him) will reap the reward of doing so-- being disrespectful is not right.
Like your edit states, what Wilson did was against House rules. But, even if it wasn't, it was entirely disrespectful and stupid to shout out "you lie" in the middle of a serious speech. It showed his ignorance on the topic at hand as well as his inability to keep his mouth shut. Wilson just wanted attention and he got it. Given what I've also found out about who Joe Wilson is after the outburst also makes me question his status as a Christian. He's appears to be a hateful person and for me that automatically makes him not a Christian in my opinion.
as a liberal, i was constantly told by conservatives to shut up and be patriotic and support Bush.
conservatives need to follow their own expectations.
@Lil_Firefly_25@xanga - And although Wilson is not in the army, he is in congress and should RESPECT the president's higher authority position.
The President does NOT have a higher authority than Congress. The executive branch is a completely separate branch of government. No congressmen is beholden to the President.
Butt ignorance of how American government was originally constructed is destroying this country.
This post is disgusting! Where were all you self righteous, pious nimrods when Senator Harry Reid disparaged President Bush in front of a bunch of school children?
There was more leftist hatred aimed at President Bush during his 8 years in office then you could shake a stick at. Yet some Southern congressman telling the truth about President Obama is hate and disrespect!
Go figure.
President Clinton spent in his time as President getting blow jobs from Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office and had the unmitigated gall to shake is finger at the nation on national television saying, "I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN!"
A complete lie.
But dishonest dipshits like the OP defend liars like Obama by objecting to lack of decorum of a patriot like Joe Wilson who dares to tell the truth:
Obama is a liar.
GO JOE WILSON!!
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - as a liberal, i was constantly told by conservatives to shut up and be patriotic and support Bush.
No, you were told that because you are a mentally retarded (idiot) liar. If you were to simply shut your ignorant, lying pie hole, the world would be a better place.
Listen to the Christians and conservatives who are telling you what you don't want to hear (that you are a dumb ass who needs to shut up) and save the world a little bit of darkness.
One of these days that message is going to get through that thick skull of yours and you are going to have a truly cosmic experience of repentance and redemption.
Then you will also understand the meaning of "tough love."
@LoBornlyte@xanga - I have an A in government if you must know.
And if you want to get technical, yes all three branches have equal power. But what Wilson did was VERY disrespectful to the LEADER OF AMERICA. Obama is already under so much pressure trying to introduce his plan to congress, did he really need Wilson (a member of the House, where there are 400+ representatives) to do that? Why couldn't Wilson give his opinion on any number of one of the news shows? And to quote OP's edit: "the House chamber has a specific rule (since the founding fathers) against saying pejorative things about the president on the floor and that calling him a liar is strictly prohibited."
And to add to that, in any public speech (in government or just an assembly), you give time for whomever is speaking. It is an unspoken rule that any sort of interruption is considered very rude. You may speak when and if the speaker opens the floor for questions.
I'm not defending Obama's health care plan because I don't support him at all. I'm defending his right to speak without being interrupted by a grown man who should have known better than to do that.
@Lil_Firefly_25@xanga - Don't waste your time with LoBornlyte. They only comment to insult.
@songbird27@xanga - haha, I figured as much. :P
@LoBornlyte@xanga - @LoBornlyte@xanga - "as a liberal, i was constantly told by conservatives to shut up and be patriotic and support Bush.
No, you were told that because you are a mentally retarded (idiot) liar. If you were to simply shut your ignorant, lying pie hole, the world would be a better place.
Listen to the Christians and conservatives who are telling you what you don't want to hear (that you are a dumb ass who needs to shut up) and save the world a little bit of darkness.
One of these days that message is going to get through that thick skull of yours and you are going to have a truly cosmic experience of repentance and redemption."
I was going to make a comment on this blog when I came across your comment. You are totally ignorant, arrogant and you should be the one to shut your ignorant lying pie hole. You don't deserve the right to call yourself a Christian. I'm a card carrying Buddhist and I have more respect for the sincere Christians here than you have shown in your posts but this post of yours takes the case. You sound like a sociopath and certainly not like someone who gives a sh*t about anyone but yourself. I attempted to be gentle with you in the past but seeing you speaking to someone else in such a tone and with such ignorance makes me sick. I won't use the language here that sits on the tip of my tongue but you and Jesus have less in common than Jews have with Muslims.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - just want to let you know that I posted a comment in your defense, not that you need it. I couldn't msg you because your profile is locked so I'm letting you know here.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - Your usual garbled mess. You could have boiled your comment down to 3 three words.
Brevity is the soul of wit. No brevity, no wit. That's you.
I want to start off by saying I don't mean to be offensive in any way by and if anyone is offended by what I say, I'm sorry you feel that way but here it is:
If anyone had done anything similar to this while George W. Bush was president they would have immediately been branded unpatriotic and shunned, many people would even go as far as to call that person a traitor.
Personally, I disagree with you and agree with Obama's politics and would like to know if you think he did anything to merit loss of respect, and if so, what specifically.
HOWEVER, I must stop myself there because that's not what this post is about, this post is about respect and therefore it should be addressed as so.
To put it simply, there is a time and a place for everything and the time span where President Obama had the floor was neither the time nor the place to interrupt him. You bring up interesting points and events in the Bible, but at the same time, while what was said was harsh, it was not rudely said because the timing was correct.
Never did Jesus burst into a temple as a rabbi was preaching and scream "you are a liar and you are misleading my people," instead he confronted them face to face in settings that were intended for them, where the rabbis and teachers of the law would speak to him in situations where a dialog could occur (and often they sought him out, by the way) and if he was preaching to masses, he had the floor to begin with.
Wilson's comment, albeit rather fatuous and inelaborate in nature, wasn't an overly rude comment in and of itself, it was just a grossly inappropriate time to say it, he could have expressed it any other time to any people including directly to the media or, given the chance, directly to President Obama's face and it would have been fine, but instead he chose to interrupt our president mid speech.
I'm rather surprised that 1. this incident happened and 2. there's a question here of if Wilson was even in the wrong. Laws and political ethics aside, knowing not to interrupt someone is something we all should have learned in kindergarten.
helvetebrann@xanga Regardless of your opinion about the president's health care reform, the comment, "You lie!" about immigrants receiving free health care was incorrect. The president was not lying.
Technically you were correct, the president didn't lie in the sense that the house bill as written, if passed, would cover people who are in America legally. Once conservatives held the feet of people in the administration and the bill writers to the fire about specifically excluding illegals in the bill, the president immediately turned around and said during the week of Sept.4th, that "the health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage." That's been the plan all along--either include illegal aliens (How do you suppose they came up with the estimate that there are 47 million people in this country without coverage???---the 12 million or so illegals are included in that number!!)--OR grant amnesty to them after the law goes into effect and end up granting them coverage anyway!!! [check the link below]:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1
Wilson was very well aware of this since he has been a member of the committee working on this bill for some time. He was 'spot on' in his remarks---It has become clear that the president's statements were intentionally misleading (as he has been all along--How many times has he been caught being less than honest--more times than I can remember!!) & Wilson called him on it in a very inappropriate manner. In all honesty, I probably would have done the very same thing because I've had 'up to here' with his disingenuous behavior all along!!!
Lil_Firefly_25@xanga "Obama is already under so much pressure trying to introduce his plan to congress"
Yes, he has been very very busy and under tremendous pressure to RAM A PLAN DOWN THE THROATS OF A VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WHO DON'T WANT HIS BRAND OF GOVT. CONTROLLED HEALTH CARE!!!!!!
LAW--
@LoBornlyte@xanga - "Your usual garbled mess. You could have boiled your comment down to 3 three words.
Brevity is the soul of wit. No brevity, no wit. That's you."
Now that's funny considering that about have of my previous comment was taken up by a quote from one of your posts dissing another member. That you are unable to grasp concepts does not make those who express them any the lesser but you're right. I could have summed up my statement in fewer words. One word actually but I don't use that language at Revelife.
@LoBornlyte@xanga - "Brevity is the soul of wit. No brevity, no wit. That's you."
I find that hilarious coming from a person whose every comment on this post has been paragraphs long.
Way to make yourself look both hateful and stupid.