"Help us our God / Help us our Savior / For the glory of your name / For the glory of your kingdom / Deliver us and atone for our sins / Deliver us and forgive all our sins / Help us our God / We come to you desperately needy / Help us our God / May your mercy come quickly to meet us / Help us our God, help us our God / Help us our God, for your name's sake" (Vineyard Music "Help Us Our God" ©1991).
Back when the Vineyard movement first began in the 1970s and 1980s, first under Kenn Gulliksen and then under John Wimber, there was a very strong emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and seeing the gifts being manifested during the service. Worship services were kept simple, with a long worship time, a short message and a long ministry time. Ministry time was done in a special way. Instead of anyone who wanted prayer going to the altar to be prayed for by an elder or prayer leader, the regular attendees of the church would pray for each other. There was also often a time for words of knowledge or prophecies to be given.
Lyrics to the songs they sung were simple and easy to learn, such as in "Help Us Our God" from 1991. My first paragraph consists of that entire song. Other songs included sung during the late 1980s and early 1990s included "I Bow Down" and "Arms of Love."
Unfortunately, today's Vineyard churches are not at all like the Vineyards of the 1980s and 1990s. Modern Vineyard songs include "If You Say Go" and "Invitacion Fountain." With the modern Vineyard music came a turning away from the "old ways" of the movement into a newer form, and this newer way of doing things seems to be pushing the Holy Spirit into being unable to work during the service.
Have any of you experienced this in your churches, whether you've attended a Vineyard or not?
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Comments (23)
Using worship songs with more than ten words is making the Spirit unable to work? I'm confused.
I'm confused too.
First by the title: The Holy Spirit being "active" in a church does not necessarily equal long worship times or a particular style of music. The Holy Spirit was not invented by the Vineyard movement, after all.
Second by the implications of the post: Does our choice of song render the Holy Spirit impotent? You said, "...this newer way of doing things seems to be pushing the Holy Spirit into being unable to work during the service." A) What action can a human take that would render the Holy Spirit unable to work? B) What is so Spirit-weakening about this "newer way of doing things"? You've given no specifics other than order of service and song choice. What is bad about "If You Say Go" and "Invitacion Fountain" [sic]?
Third, by the implication that, if the Holy Spirit requires a certain church-service formula to be active, and the old Vineyard had it but the new Vineyard doesn't, what of non-Vineyard churches? Are you saying, then, that the Holy Spirit is unable to work in Baptist churches, Catholic churches, Lutheran churches--unless they have easy-to-learn one-paragraph songs and a long sharing time?
I'm concerned, my friend, that you've put the Spirit in a box. Without airholes. Consider that God works not only in the ways we are familiar with but in the ways that make us uncomfortable. Consider that personal preferences regarding church service and song do not necessarily equate with the efficacy of the Holy Spirit.
So I invite you to explain:
--What does it mean for the Holy Spirit to be able to work? What does it mean for the Holy Spirit to be active?
--In what way do you believe that song selection assists or hinders the action of the Holy Spirit? What distinguishes a Spirit-active song from a non-Spirit-active song?
--In what way do you believe that the order of service assists or hinders the action of the Holy Spirit? How can you tell?
--Can the Holy Spirit work despite the actions of humans, or is the Spirit powerless except where humans allow him?
@ChrisRusso@xanga - Good thoughts, excellent questions.
The Spirit wants to be active but too often we quench or grieve Him. As we trust less in God and rely more on our own selves we can limit Him.
How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy. Psalm 78:41-42.
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:58
There's often a lot of activity in a lot of churches, but I would propose much of it is man-made rather than Spirit-breathed.
For about 450 years now it has been the tradition of most Jesuit universities to begin the academic year with a Mass of the Holy Spirit. The Mass is offered to invite the Holy Spirit to bless the beginnings of the year and all of the students and faculty, and fill them all with a desire to serve God in all that they do. Classes are cancelled so that all who wish to attend may do so.
This year our new archbishop presided, and several dozen Jesuit priests, most of whom teach here, concelebrated with him. The whole church building, which is fairly large as far as such buildings go, was completely packed.
That place was on fire; I had chills throughout the whole Mass, especially during the Eucharistic prayer. Knowing that a man who was consecrated in succession with the original apostles was praying the same prayers and performing the same ministry as those taught by Christ Himself nearly two thousand years ago was amazing to think about.
"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Cor 11:23-25)
Definitely the right way to kick off the school year!
What @ChrisRusso@xanga said. I think you're mistaking a form of worship in which you saw the Holy Spirit at work with the (only?) form of worship that causes the Holy Spirit to work. I don't doubt that the Spirit was active in the Vineyard services of your youth; I do doubt that the form of the service by itself was what brought about His activity.
I've seen the Holy Spirit at work and absent both inside and outside of just about every box you can think of. But He always does His best work when we're willing to stand out of His way and let Him do it-- and that absolutely includes not setting up arbitrary notions about a "form" as the "best" way to "get" the Spirit to move.
Prayer and genuine humility are the only necessary things. The first is easier to come by, so I recommend starting there.
as a musician, i find that you can manipulate emotions just by what is being played, and am very cautious when i play, because i want God to stir up hearts and not me, i've seen this abused too much. I grew up in a pentecostal church, so I'm not saying everything i was taught was bad. I however, see a desperate need for the Holy Spirit to move, in our services, in my life, but agree with others here that it cannot be dependent on a song, or a form. I see the need of His divine help every moment of every day, not just a 2 hour long service. We can't get caught up in comparison, cause even in the early Vineyard movement doesn't compare with the Upper Room experience, i haven't heard of anyone with flames above their heads since then. It doesn't mean that His Spirit doesn't move, if we ask Him, He will be faithful and do a miraculous work in us.
i agree with chris, but also to add- if you are looking for a very Spirit filled experience and you are out west- check out Bethel church, its a crazy place. Its in northern california. i honestly don't know what i really think of Bethel, its wild. they say that they are seeing a lot of miracles there, and I went once for a service, its very very different from anything i've ever experienced. the people really love Jesus, and that manifests in a lot of different ways. They are pretty obsessed w/ the Holy Spirit.
i don't know if i really hold with all of their teachings....but just letting you know about them. def a church all about being Spirit led...
@cecilia - I'm in Washington state.
I miss longer worship times =o/
There are many churches today that have a form of "religion" and many that do not. there are many that invite the presence of God (His Holy Spirit) through worship and praise, and many that stick to "tradition" and the "dictates of men" and so kill what God sent Jesus to teach us how to do.
The BODY of Christ assembles and is trasnformed by allowing the Holy Spirit to become manifest within wach individual and the body as a whole. We do this by allowing the Holy Spirit to set the mood, and order our steps in accordance with His will and Word.
Fire for the Lord is one of the main things that we must have in the body, but at the same time, we must have reverence (fear) for the Lord, and love both for him and for each other. Music is very insrumental for helping to set the mood, but again, we must listen to how the Holy spirit moves us. If He wants fast Praise music, do it; if He wants slow worship music, do it. Let Him set the mood and guide the service. As we do this, his annointing falls and the whole service is a victory for the kingdom of God.
I grew up in church, and in my travels I searched for "world order" in my "spirituality", and became lost in the world. But my heart was still founded in Christ, and so when I let go, His Holy Spirit came and retreived me from the darkness where I was, and brought me to a church body that taught truth according to the Word of God. And through his direction, and revelations, and prophetic word, I have grown more in a couple of years than my parents did in their entire lifetime.
The key is to allow the Spirit of the Lord to work, without grief, and he will provide for ALL of our needs - in EVERY way. Amen.
@hippiechristian73102@xanga - ok i've heard of some neat churches in Portland, oregon- but i've never been. if you ever road trip/visit cali, bring some friends, check out Bethel, its definitely worth a visit at least once. i'm glad i did- it was just an experience, and God showed me some really important things while I was there. there are definitely plenty of Churches that are good in between cali and washington, tho! haha. God bless!
The churches I grew up in had people appointed as "catchers" to catch people when they fell under the power of the Holy Spirit.
This happened while repeating instantaneously made up choruses consisting of maybe 2 or three words like "fresh fire" or "spirit breathe" or "anoint us Lord". That was considered the Holy Spirit being active in Church.
I was always one of those people that frustrated the Church leaders when I didn't fall. I wasn't trying to resist the work of the Spirit, I just wasn't being knocked down by Him.
Now I can't speak for all people in those Churches or as to how much of those experiences were truly the work of the Holy Spirit, but I steer clear of that scene these days because upon closer examination of scripture, I can not see why we should be seeking such experiences. It can be easy to limit the work of the Spirit to those kinds of experiences, and I think it gives the Holy Spirit little credit for His true power and purpose.
The Holy Spirit isn't here to give us a high or do cool tricks, its here to empower us to do God's work and be the living Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is powerful, and if we are truly seeking God His Spirit will work in us and through us in whatever way is necessary...He does not need us to assemble a special formula or spell to invoke Him.
With the modern Vineyard music came a turning away from the "old ways"
of the movement into a newer form, and this newer way of doing things
seems to be pushing the Holy Spirit into being unable to work during
the service.
I doubt that a newer way of doing things is what is keeping the Holy Spirit from be able to work, but instead maybe it is too much reliance on a method or formula that distracts their hearts from being in a place that allows the Holy Spirit to work.
There is a significant difference between desiring those experiences which we've known the work of the Spirit to accompany, and actually desiring the Spirit to be at work.
The Holy Spirit is constant and it will never change. Guiding us into all truth today. The Holy Spirit has a deeper and more profound meaning than selective songs we sung.
Now this same Holy Spirit does something for us, found in John 16:8-13 which describes the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now the same Holy Spirit which is found in Hebrews 10:26 tells us what is the unpardonable sin.
@tau_1@xanga - Indeed.
The last Vineyard church I visited was in Vancouver, and there was definitely a lot of ministry going on during the service. I don't remember what songs they sang. Some were familiar, others were not, but they were all good, as I recall. At that service and at one I attended at the original Vineyard in California two years ago, the music was mellower and less repetitive than it tends to be at the church I belong to in Dallas. At the California Vineyard, about 40% of the congregation went forward in response to a very low-key invitation for ministry after the sermon.
My impression of Vineyard churches, from the several I've visited, is that they expect God to show up, and they enjoy emotional musical worship, but they don't create a huge amount of pressure for something to happen. Sometimes I wish my own church was less manipulative.
@Roadkill_Spatula@xanga - Are you referring to the Vineyard church in Vancouver, Washington?
Yeah, that's what I like about the Vineyard church. They expect God to show up and do whatever work he wants to do that day, but they don't force it. I went to a church that was a bit manipulative for youth group when I was in junior high and high school, and I did not like the manipulation (a whole different blog entry in itself).
I left the Vineyard movement just about 2 years ago for personal reasons, but I really like the worship style and stuff used in the churches and I wish they used that style at my current church.
God is everywhere. A friend once told me "You need to go where God is". From what I understand the Holy Spirit is very sensitive and will only come where He is invited. At my church we used to have a small group healing service. When it was time for the priest to be prayed for he would kneel and softly speak in tongues in prayer. I believe the Holy Spirit was there. I've been to a lot of different churches in a lot of different denominations while I was looking for a church/denomination home. At some of them I had a good experience. Some of them were "dead". I think it takes the whole group to invite the Holy Spirit in and then I believe he will come. Unfortunately as the youth culture changes some of the church leaders feel like they have to change their methods.
@hippiechristian73102@xanga - Vancouver, BC, actually. I don't remember the specific name.
One word: yes.
Okay, more than one word: Yes, & nothing can stop the Holy Spirit from moving because the Holy Spirit is God, apart of the Trinity Godhead.
As the Bible says, "Jesus Christ (God, Holy Spirit) is the same yesterday, today & forever." This means the movement of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, & other gifts will never cease, because God is always consistent in what He does & His word is true.
It's difficult to comment on a post like this without incurring the wrath of people who are satisfied with the status quo. There're a lot of things going on in Christian gatherings that give the impression that we've succeeded in silencing the Holy Spirit. Entertainment has replaced worship while motivation is the fad instead of the gospel. In the midst of this growing apostacy, Christ's busy building His own church. It may not be visible, but it's thriving under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit.
Inemesit
Author, Help! I'm Tired of Religion
www.eloquentbooks.com/Help-ImTiredOfReligion.html
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I personally don't believe that the Holy Spirit is given unlimited access to reign supreme in most of His Churches. This is evident by the lack of deliverance and lack of people who truly possess the fruits of the Spirit. Having gift of the Spirit is not the same as having the fruit or having godly behavior and Spiritual maturity. Many confuse the two.
The divorce rate and problems with sin, bigotry and divorce would not be so high among our congregants if the Holy Spirit were truly residing in us, for we are the real Church, not the buildings! .