The orthodox formulation of the trinity wasn't declared until the Council of Nicaea met in the fourth century, and the word 'homoousios' was only barely included, in a last minute stroke of brilliance by one of Emperor Constantine's advisers, Hosius of Cordoba.
(Note: Picture = Not the Trinity in question.)
Likewise, most Christians today, in attempting to explain the Trinity, will resort to metaphors that are essentially heretical. Using the three forms of water - ice, liquid and steam - to explain the Trinity does not explain the orthodox conception, but rather an ancient heresy called modalism.
With those two facts in mind, I sometimes question whether the concept of the Trinity is a deal-breaker for Christian orthodoxy. I'm not arguing that it's unimportant, but I'm not convinced that it is critical either.
What do you think? Is it important for Christians to be able to articulate the Trinity in orthodox terms? Is it important for Christians to believe in the Trinity at all? Are Christians who believe Jesus was God's first creation, rather than co-eternal with God, hell-bound?
Is the Trinity really important? Why or why not?-NDSR
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Comments (25)
I think that it is, even though it is a rather hard thing to adequately do.
I think we have to believe it, but if we had to articulate it we'd all be heretics.
@nyclegodesi24@xanga -
You can never go wrong with the three branches of government.
To answer the post: sound doctrine saves. Paul assumes it, then he tells this to Timothy directly. Gnosticism is not just "kind of wrong." It's wrong.
@nyclegodesi24@xanga -
Although now that I think about it, yeah you can get a heresy out of the government analogy. LOL.
seeing as nowhere in the NT is the word "Trinity" used, i don't see how it's critical from a Biblical viewpoint.
Even from the beginning of his ministry people were asking Jesus a very similar question regarding his relationship towards the father; when he finally told them flat out (John 10:30), they wanted to stone him!
In Jesus' last prayer before his crucifixtion in John 17 he prays to the Father saying "and all things that are mine are yours, and all things that are yours are mine; and I have been glorified, in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as we are one." John 17:10-11
We may never fully understand the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and trying to explain it using terms such as an egg and it's 3 layers or water and it's 3 states is a waste of time. Jesus has explained it to us here; "that they be one, even as we are one" The unity comes in being, in essence, in mind, in purpose, and in agreement.
The Holy Spirit comes from the Father, and the Son; I could list some scriptures, but then that would create a mini-post cause there are far too many to list.
Yet I think it's name suffices; the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ... etc. It is the Spirit that is set apart (or different) from all others... it is God's Spirit.... it is the Spirit of Christ; it is of them.
Anyway, John 17 explains the relationship that Jesus and the Father share very well, in my opinion. The Trinity as technically held may not be 100% accurate, but that's what happens when you try to formulate a doctrine or theology outside of what God's Word actually says.
Anywho, that's my quickly-thrown together thoughts on it.
Hmmm, It is important to those who choose to follow Christ to step away from ALL that man has established in the name of religion or in the name of Christ or in the name of God. I say this because, for as long as we look through the eyes of a blind man we will see nothing worthwhile.
Scripture tells us that man's heart is evil, IF what God tells us about our heart is true, then nothing that man would establish can be considered righteous, and therefore, if one truly seeks to find God, one cannot find Him through the dictates of man.
So, we must step back from what we have come to know as truth, and seek the ONE who IS truth in order to find THE truth.
So how do we do this? We search his Word. But not just any bible will give us the whole truth as we know it. I have three different versions of the Word of God. Those versions being, New International version, The Living Bible, the Jerusalem version, the New King James version and the King James version. Of what I have, only the King James comes close enough to quote with any God authority behind it. This because the other versions take away from the true meaning of God, and/or leave out entire versus. Who is man to decide to leave out any part of the word of God?
However, If we look to any of these versions with the wisdom and descernment of God, and rely upon the Revelation Knowledge of the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent to REVEAL ALL truth, then we can glean from the pages what God has intended for us to recieve, and answer in truth wheter or not the trinity is truth.
As for myself, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit of God.
The Trinity is crucial for multiple reasons
a) Because of its explanation of who Jesus is. It is important whether our faith was founded by a guy who was God himself and also fully human, or whether it was founded by a guy who was just another prophet, an emissary of God. The Christian teaching counteracts the "distant God" of the deist or agnostic: through the Trinity we fully understand the meaning of the word Immanuel. God became human--this is so very central to our faith.
"Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the
same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in
order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in
service to God... For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our
weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as
we are—yet was without sin." --The Author of Hebrews
b) Because of its explanation of the nature of God. We believe in one God--we are not polytheists. Yet at the same time, the God we worship is not alone--God is by nature intrinsically relational. Hence the importance of one's relationship with God--all of Nature is centered around its relationship with God, even God himself is centered around his relationship with God.
"...if God is triune, then loving relationships in community are the 'great fountain... at the center of reality.' When people say 'God is love,' I think they mean that love is extremely important, or that God really wants us to love. But in the Christian conception, God really has love as his essence... Ultimate reality is a community of persons who know and love one another." --Tim Keller
Quite simply, we cannot abandon the Trinity without abandoning what Jesus said he was and who Jesus said God is. And both those concepts are essential to explaining what happened at the Cross--the very lynchpin of Christianity.
I agree with the comments above that the Trinity is crucial. It's who God is.
Crucial but hard to explain due to being human.
The Trinity is never laid out tidily in the Scriptures, but there is plenty of evidence for it, or at least something very like it. (There was a related post a month or two ago after which I mentioned some of the passages in a comment.) While I don't think believing in the Trinity is a requirement for salvation (and certainly understanding it can't be, or we're all in trouble), the Trinity generally serves as a benchmark of orthodoxy vs. heresy. Typically if a church or movement denies the Trinity, they have other issues of concern as well.
I've come to accept that our limited human minds cannot comprehend the concept of Trinity. That's because this sort of thing also happens in nature itself, and it's widely accepted eventhough it might seem like a paradox:
Wave-particle duality of matter... a particle can behave like a wave (Young's double slit experiment) and a wave can also behave like a particle (Einsterin's photoelectric effect).
Sometimes I wonder if the Creator made His creation this way to reflect His own "multiple" nature as well.
If the Trinity is just aspects of God, then isn't all just God? Being raised in a culture where God/Divinity lies everywhere [though you have to just realize it], the Trinity hasn't ever really made sense to me.
Either way, [not a Christian], I think God is the most important part, not his many forms.
The Trinity is a hard concept to understand. But it is the nature of God and we are created in His image and likeness. It may not be directly stated in scripture, but it is present there.
From what I've been taught, the Father loves the Son so much that this love becomes its own being, its own person, the Holy Spirit, hence the Nicene Creed saying "...the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son..."
And since we are created in God's image, we reflect that divine mystery. The love between a husband and wife becomes so powerful, so real, that its consummation becomes its own person, their child. So we too, not just alone, but as a communion of persons, reflect the Trinitarian communion of God himself.
Father, Mother, Child.
Mary, Joseph, Jesus.Father, Son, Holy Spirit.The Trinity IS God: The Father, the Son & the Spirit. They are all God, & they all perform different things for us/through us/in us. Without the Trinity, there is no God. You cannot exclude any one part, otherwise it's not completely God. Some churches exclude the Holy Spirit (which is seprate from the following, but allows the following to happen, among other gifts) & speaking in tongues, but....you can't do that, otherwise you are restricting/cancelling God altogether.
I would offer that Christianity kind of shot itself in the foot (one of many times) with the holy trinity.
If it is 3 separate entities then it becomes a polytheistic religion and its "no other gods before me" spiel faces strong difficulties.
If it is one entity then this cheapens the concept of them being decoupled from each other - especially the acts of Jesus that are meant to be *human* acts and not godly acts.
So if I were Christian I would probably say it's not important, ha. Or you can do what most Christians do and say that it's unified or separate depending on what best suites your argument at the time.
I generally offer a simplistic, but hard to dispute, picture when dealing with those who want to believe in God, but not in a trinitarian God. (IE. Jehovah's Witnesses, et. al.)
My conversations with them (and my explaination to them) goes something like this:
We can agree that we were made in the image of God... the Bible plainly states thus and there's generally no argument there.
If you will lend me your finger for merely a moment I would like to show you something profound.
Your finger, created in the image of God, is three distinct, but seperate parts ---- working in unison in order to allow you to function.
It is BLOOD, consisting of various components (anti-coagulants, white blood cells, red blood cells, etc.) , but blood in essence.
It is BONE, with various things (ie. marrow, joint tissue, etc) constructing them, but Bone nonetheless.
It is FLESH, again, with various things (Skin, muscle, etc) in connection to this, but flesh in total.
Remove the blood, your finger ceases to function.
Remove the bone, your finger ceases to funtion.
Remove the Flesh, your finger is useless..... it ceases to function.
Three parts, one whole, created in the image of God, a TRIUNE God. I can't fully explain HOW He works as he does, but I see evidence of it in his creation.
Any questions further?
I've gotten many a JW and cultist to stop, pause an reflect with this one.... cause the truth is, our very bodies reflect a triune God in base essence.
the trinity is an age-old puzzle. i think it is very important though, to accept that 3 persons, one being thing, even if you can't understand it!
i wouldn't say people are hell-bound if they believe that Jesus was God's creation. but the rest of the scriptures can't stand on that, because that would make Jesus lesser.
(A) yes; (B) because God tells us who He is; to deny that is to deny God and try to create a god that we want or could comprehend in our human terms
Yes the trinity is important in my faith. We cannot completely understand God in three persons. But God has His name describing this. It was mistranslated to Jehovah from Yaweh. ( spelling? ) Each of the three persons of God has His own charicteristics. The Father is the One I pray to. Jesus is the Savior and in His name I pray. The Holy Spirit is the One who leads me to pray. For me, Jesus Christ is God. In the OT God said " I Am the Lord your God". In the NT God said "Jesus is Lord". God is One. What that means to me I can't explain. The three persons of God are not always in agreement. Jesus didn't want to die. It was the Father's will Jesus die for us but while Jesus was in His passion the Father was not with Him. When Jesus descended into hell, the Holy Spirit had been given back to the Father. Then God raised Jesus from the dead and later He went back to be with the Father. Jesus is not a creation of God's. Jesus is God's Son.
i grew up under the "the trinity is like an apple!" mode of teaching, hahaha.
i don't really believe it's important. actually. the bible, heck, jesus himself never writes down a lit of things we ABSOLUTELY MUST believe in order to be "saved." on the contrary, what does the lord require of you? to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your god. we're called to love the lord our god and love our neighbors, not adhere to a list of approved doctrines. obviously, we're all going to have different ideas about the "right" way to do things, but really i think a lot of it's unnecessary.
and i don't see that much evidence, really, for a trinity in the bible. what's commonly referred to as "the holy spirit"--so it's the spirit of god. why does that mean it's a separate person? i have a spirit too, but i'm not two people in one. and i find it interesting that jesus never claims to be god himself, always putting the emphasis back on god rather than himself. i'm not saying he isn't god, i'm just saying i don't know, and i don't expect to ever understand it perfectly. and what's more, that doesn't bother me. instead of spending my time trying to stick labels on jesus and dissect doctrine like it's some kind of science experiment, i find it more worthwhile to just get up and go in the direction of christ, regardless of whether he's god, or "just" the son of god.
I believe it is important to believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, because they all play key roles in the Gospel and the life of the Church. I also believe it is important to recognize that there is one God, and that God consists of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, and they are perfectly one.
How well we articulate, comprehend,or attempt to reconcile it is not a matter of importance, although it doesn't hurt to try.
But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not so sure that an inaccurate view of the trinity is an instant deal breaker. It depends on what attributes of God are being compromised.
I highly doubt everyone who came to Christ in the New Testament was even aware of any concept of the trinity as it is taught today. Never once in the Bible is the "orthodox" concept of the trinity clearly, plainly expressed.
Seeing how the subject is rather complicated and leaps right past our understanding of existence, I don't think God would hold it against us if we don't get it right, so why should we hold it against anyone else?
I agree that there is nowhere where it seems really clearly laid out in scripture. That's all right with me, though. The Bible mentions the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit often enough that I figure they're all important. That's good enough for me. How and why these very real parts of who God is all fit together doesn't matter so much. What matters to me is that God exists and has done meaningful things in my life.
If there is no trinity, then Jesus praying to the father in John chapter 17 is an illusion. If that's the case, how can we know what isn't just an illusion. The doctrine of scripture is put in peril if you ignore the trinity.
Yes, I do believe that the trinity is important. I think of it as so important, that awhile back ago, I wrote post that was my attempt to explain it.
http://proudtobeachristianfruitcake.xanga.com/690190353/trinity/
I hope you find the blog entry useful.