Monday, 24 August 2009
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Rationalize These Bible Verses, Please
Exodus 35:2: God demands that everyone should be killed that works on the sabbath day
Deuteronomy 21:18-21: God demands we kill disobedient teenagers
Deuteronomy 22:13-21: God demands that we kill women whom are not virgins when they marryAnd so on, there are lots of verses like these. Where is this all loving God Bible thumpers preach about? Nowhere because there is no intelligent being in the sky granting our wishes. The Bible is out dated and barbaric, such as the men who wrote it for their own self-serving ideals.
However, I'm sure all you religious zealots will rationalize these scriptures to fullfill your own personal needs. What will you say to yourself, "that these are metaphors," give me a break. You are all living in a fantasy world.
Oh, and I was just curious about how you rationalize this fact in the bible of your all loving God....
Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?Exodus 21:20-21
Colossians 3:22-24
Ephesians 6:5
1 Peter 2:18
-- and the list goes on.What are your answers?
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About the Author
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- From: oticgrl@xanga
- Name: oticgrl
- About Me: i am 30 years old. i am a registered nurse. i am agnostic. i am passionate about humanitarian issuses, american politics, self enlightenment (eckhart tolle). i am constantly philosophizing about the interconnection of all living things, especially the interconnections of mankind. i am also very interested in quantum physics and chemistry.
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Comments (191)
wow...I'm a Christian, and I can't rationalize these verses....I wont even try
I doesn't do any good to try to talk to someone who is as angry as you are. You already seem to have all the answers, so why are you even asking?
These aren't metaphors. They meant quite literally what they say--they were laws for governing a theocratic nation. (A nation, I might add, that no longer exists, at least not in that form, and thus these laws are no longer in use.)
I don't see how we can answer your questions without understanding exactly what it is you're saying, and the underpinnings of your complaint. Are you saying that it necessarily follows that one cannot both be "loving" and author national laws that involve capital punishment? Are you saying that the national laws of one ancient nation are morally inferior to the national laws of some contemporary modern nation (and if so, are you not using the standards of your culture to judge the merits of another--essentially ethnocentrism?) Are you saying that, if God exists, we have a moral standard by which to judge God's actions? (In other words, if God exists, and God does X, and you think that X is intrinsically wrong, what basis do you have for believing that X is intrinsically wrong?)
In short, there's not much to answer here, because you haven't finished your question. What about these passages makes you feel that Christians need to rationalize them?
I'll let someone that is better versed and more adept at answering these sort of questions respond to your statements. I just question why you would come here to attack us in this regard. You're not being curious or open-minded, and you'll surely write off whatever answers are given. Would you knock on a scientist's door and yell at them for their theories and beliefs? Many of them are based on laws and theories almost as old as the Bible, or ones mentioned in the Bible, such as the second law of thermodynamics.
I remember when I was a fervent Athiest and thought like this and attacked people's faith. I was also twelve.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - asking legitimate questions =/= angry.
Try asking this to your Jewish and Muslim friends, too, who accept those Old Testament books. It seems someone has royally pissed you off. I'm inclined to believe that's your real concern.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - Agreed.
@Soul_Pizza@xanga - "However, I'm sure all you religious zealots..." "Where is this all loving God Bible thumpers preach about? Nowhere..." "out dated and barbaric..." "self-serving..."
This is not neutral language. The tone of this piece decidedly indicates anger, or at least disdain.
@GaugeCheck - Christians have imprisoned those who said the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. And, from personal experiance going through confirmation and asking legitimate questions, I have learned that you guys really dont know exactly what you worship, if its even real.
You people unite as one when someone attacks you, but as soon as one of your own says something different from the group, you all jump on him.
And maybe the author just wished you guys would pull your heads from your asses and dedicate your time to a meaningful cause, whether it be for yourself or curing some disease.
to me it's simple: it was written by men. they talked about their world.
the bible is an inspiration. To take evrything in it is just... stupid.
unfortunatly it seems that many people here take EVERYTHING litteraly.
@ChrisRusso@xanga - maybe not, but I've seen worse than that - on BOTH sides of the spectrum.
I will admit, however, that upon further inspection, I realize that I took the initial comment out of context. My mistake.
I no longer feel a responsibility to explain things to idiots who are unable to read in context. For example, for Exodus 35:2, see Exodus 35:1, this was a command for the children of Israel. I see no "everyone."
Pick and choose, pick and choose. . .
In New York state the penalty for jumping off a building is death, and a fine of $25 can be levied for flirting. Are New-Yorkers outdated and barbaric?
I hope someday I will get a hold of this e-mail that "skeptics" are copy-and-pasting lines from.
No matter how many times it is explained, some people just don't understand that Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. We have a different way of doing things now- that doesn't include killing. Slavery is neither condoned, nor condemned in the bible. It is just a fact that they existed and was a way of life back then. No one really knew anything different.
My hero <3
Well, to be fair, Deuteronomy 21 18-21 is not just about teenagers. Considering that at the time 14 would have been an adult member of society. The exact word used is "son"; the term "teenager" did not even exist. If you're going to have problems with verses of the Bible, at least use a decent translation.
Beyond that, I couldn't care less about your silly whining. If you were actually looking for answers, then I would respect this, but you are not. This is a ridiculous temper tantrum by a closed-minded child. Grow up. Beyond that, this is nothing more than another pathetic, and easily seen through attempt by the desperate editors of Revelife to generate a fake controversy. Considering the OP has no posts of her own, has no friends, and has been here less than a month, I would guess this was written by a Revelife/Xanga editor or intern.
@GaugeCheck - I remember when I was a fervent Athiest and thought like this and attacked people's faith. I was also twelve. NICE
So, if I have this right: Your argument is that the Bible says that under certain conditions capital punishment may be warranted and also addresses people who were slaves; therefore it is impossible that an all-loving God exists.
There's another verse in the Bible about a person who has "a log in their own eye"-- it's just a metaphor, though. It stands for a person who judges someone for doing something they do even worse themselves. You want us to rationalize, but you present (sorry) a completely irrational argument. (Visceral, maybe. Logical, no.)
These verses are only a problem for those who say that every single statement in Old Testament Scripture is completely applicable at face value to all present-day believers. And nobody says that. Scripture itself refutes that--read Galatians or Hebrews.
I think you ought to simmer down a bit and spend some time talking
with, not at, people. Find out what Christians actually believe-- it might do you some good.
Context is important. The law of Moses was designed to create a political/ethnic nation that followed God. Sexual purity was an important part of it, as well as financial integrity, provision for the poor, provision for the priesthood, health and sanitation, respect for God, land rights, and so on. The law is given more with examples (case law) than with principles. The principles can be abstracted from the examples.
It was not only women who could be executed for sexual misconduct; the laws addressed men just as stringently. It appears that the law didn't always have to be applied, at least not in its strongest form. Joseph, for instance, was going to divorce Mary discreetly rather than subject her to public humiliation (death is not mentioned here) when he found out she was pregnant; this is given as evidence that he was a "righteous man". Jesus refused to condone the stoning of a woman caught in adultery, but he did not condemn the laws regarding sexual purity.
The provision for stoning a teenager was the extreme case of tough love, and there is no record of anyone actually availing themselves of it. But there are similarities to the situation of parents who call the police on their own out-of-control teenagers or send them to boot camp.
It appears that some of these laws were provisions for the "worst case scenario" rather than directions to be followed in every case. To say that a persistently rebellious teenager could be executed if the rebellion persisted no doubt provided for intermediate disciplinary measures as well, just as in our culture with our teens we can ground them, send them to school detention, suspend them from school, send them to Outward Bound, or let the courts deal with them.
Interestingly, in Deuteronomy it says, "If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master." Jews were not to own each other as slaves, although one could be voluntarily indentured up to seven years. Slavery was strongly discouraged in the early church, and those who were slaves were encouraged to seek their freedom if it was available, but until they were free, slaves were instructed to submit to their masters just as all believers were to submit to government authorities and children were to obey their parents.
@ChrisRusso@xanga - I agree that these were laws for governing a theocratic nation in brutal times.
I think God was establishing physical laws that separated the Jews from the rest of the physical world in preparation for more sound spiritual laws that separate His children from the spiritual world.
Not to diminish death, but we also need to realize that God sees people from an eternal perspective. Our spirit survives the death of our body. Death in our eyes (particularly those who doubt an afterlife) has a greater permanence (sense of separation) than it does in God's eyes.
Finally, I take a view that the Bible needs to be taken in the context of progressive revelation. In other words, God had to use simple (and sometimes brutal) methods and pictures to communicate who He is to us. As Israel began to understand Him better, He could reveal more and more of Himself (we see this in the prophetic and wisdom books) until at the fullness of ages, He was able to fully reveal Himself in Christ.
Where is this all loving God Bible thumpers preach about? Nowhere
because there is no intelligent being in the sky granting our wishes.
The Bible is out dated and barbaric, such as the men who wrote it for
their own self-serving ideals.However, I'm sure all you religious zealots
will rationalize these scriptures to fullfill your own personal needs.
What will you say to yourself, "that these are metaphors," give me a
break. You are all living in a fantasy world.
Well, apparently you already have the answers you want, and you have established that you are not actually willing to hear what any Bible believers have to say about it. So why is this post here? Are there just no agnostic forums out there? I don't even see what purpose it would serve there.
I typically don't answer questions about my faith when they are presented in such a disrespectful, prejudging manner.
If you were to rephrase your questions, I could explain quite a bit about those passages, but since you have already made it clear that you will not be satisfied with any answers that don't match up to the conclusions you've already come to, I don't see why I should waste my time.
this is EXACTLY why things like gay marriage and abortion are retarded rallying points. so all this stuff about slaves, killing, women being men's servants... THAT stuff we're not supposed to take literally.
but... the fact that the world was created in 7 days, we are supposed to take literally. (evolution, anyone?)all life is sacred, should be taken literally as far as abortions... but not as far as wars or the death penalty. (which is advocated by conservative republicans whose base is primarily christian)marriage between one man and one woman is supposed to be literal. oh, wait, in the bible, they had multiple wives, didn't they?
its tricky rationalizing your beliefs, isn't it?
side note- obviously TRUE christians, (those who follow the teachings of christ, not the old testament, or the rest of the bible for that matter) would be about love, acceptance, kindness and generosity. true christians are out there, but thats not the majority. the majority doesn't question what they're told and are manipulated into voting republican. (republicans actually stand for extremely UN christian idea's, take a closer look, please) and unfortunately, thats where it counts. VOTES. what you do in your private life, what you personally believe, makes no difference to me. but when you try to make everyone else adhere to your inane bullshit is when it becomes a problem.
thats all. rant over.
@babymeatball@xanga - I thought this was a discussion about God, christians and christianity, not politics.
it's all in the old testament. these are old rules the jews used to have to live by to be close to GOD. praise the LORD we don't have to do that! Jesus did that all for us.
I have these exact same questions for Christians, and no one can give me answers. Really, I don't see how you can believe in a book that says some of the things that the bible says. Sure, from what I hear people now only read the new testament of which from what I hear doesn't have as ridiculous verses, but, still. I dunno, I don't understand how people can live their life by a label, and by a book. These bible verses can't be answered because there are no answers. Christians follow their belief because they look past the ridiculous things written in the bible and look at the inspiring words, and whatever else. No, I am not an angry atheist, and the person that wrote this post wasn't either. People that do not follow faith have these questions because we cannot comprehend how people could follow a religion so closely that has such ridiculous things written in its main text.
@soy_esteban@xanga - I don't believe I have Jewish or Muslim friends to ask.....
@designandart@xanga -
unfortunately, politics and religion are pretty closely tied these days.
like i said, i would be cool with christian beliefs (or any other beliefs, for that matter) as long as they don't force them on me. politics is how they try to force it on us.
the evangelical church has been taken over by politics. it has become politics. (were gay marriage and abortions real issues before republicans needed votes?)politics has turned religion into a farce. the republican party is manipulating the christian community, using their own views against them. i would explain more, but i have a feeling you don't give a damn.
LMAO
This is just bogus.