Tuesday, 18 August 2009
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Suffering - The Christian Advantage
The Bible is often criticized for just being a mish-mash collection of randomness written over a long period of time by a random set of authors. Why don't these critics apply the same thinking to the Encyclopedia Britannica? That type of bias is usually applied when there is something the critic simply doesn't want to hear. After all, having one's world view turned on its ear can be a horrible experience.The Bible presents a world view. It presents a world view on God, the Creator. It also presents a world view on human nature, and consequently on the nature of suffering.
According to the story told in the book of Genesis, God created man in his own image and provided paradise as man's home. God gave Adam the duty of tending the paradise as God's own helper.
As the story continues we see that God gave Adam and Eve free run of Paradise except for one tree, the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. So we see that Paradise has texture. We see that Paradise is a state dependent on filial obedience and loyalty to the Creator, the Father.
We all know that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the forbidden tree. And we see how their very nature was changed to the core. Adam and Eve felt shame, they broke with one another and began to blame one another, they denied what they had done and made excuses. In essense they became disloyal, self absorbed liars.
This profound, bone deep change in human nature is the result of the first, the original, sin. And all subsequent men were born to become disloyal, self absorbed liars because this was now human nature.
God also responded with corrective remedy. The world of man would no longer be Paradise but an environment of suffering. Because we know from the Bible that God is loving and merciful we can concluded that what God does has good as its final end.
So we can summarize the Christian advantage with regard to suffering very quickly and neatly:
1) Man is the source of suffering, not God.
2) Suffering is intrinsic to the universe we habitate.
3) Whatever we have to endure in this life has good as its final end.
Do you agree?
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Comments (25)
hmmm I think I will have to consider this some more.
"Why don't these critics apply the same thinking to the Encyclopedia Britannica?"
because no one has ever attempted to portray it as a single cohesive document, unlike the Bible. furthermore, articles in the EB are all of the same genre and purpose, although their particular subjects differ. the Bible is a mixture of poetry, genealogy, history, law, and theology just to name a few.
"That type of bias is usually applied when there is something the critic
simply doesn't want to hear. After all, having one's world view turned
on its ear can be a horrible experience."
that's incredibly dismissive and arrogant. do you apply that to anyone who has questions about anything at all? that they just aren't interested in listening?
Not really. Considering the fact that the story can't be proven historically. Perhaps it should be read more metaphorically.
As for disregard to the Bible, it's not that many of us don't believe the Bible has some form of meaning, and stories about life that we can learn from. It's that so many people take the Bible as the literal 100% truth of god, when it's not. It was written by men- men who are fallible. Not to mention it's been translated a couple hundred (or thousand) times, which allows for inaccuracy. That's why I don't put too much stock in it. Not to mention that Christians seem to put so much weight on their Bible, but don't put any weight on any other religious text that predates their own.
a few observations:
1) The EB was originally first hand accounts reprinted, not written down for the first time decades/centuries after the events (supposedly) happened and then reprinted
2) I wouldn't consider the EB a worldview, comparing them seems unreasonable.
3) According to Christianity, man was created by God, so God is the source and creator of suffering. To deny that would mean you aren't really a Christian
4) I fail to see the good in mass murderers, rapists, and child molesters, if you can, feel free to enlighten me.
hmm i believe some are quite true!
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga @xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - - because no one has ever attempted to portray it as a single cohesive document, unlike the Bible.
I beg to differ. The EB is from A-Z. That makes it cohesive.
According to Christianity, man was created by God, so God is the source and creator of suffering.
That statement has it exactly backwards. Man is the source of suffering. God created him with intellect and free will. That means that man is responsible for his own actions.
I fail to see the good in mass murderers, rapists, and child molesters, if you can, feel free to enlighten me.
There may be no good in mass murderers, rapists and child molesters. I said that there is good in suffering. Therefore, the suffering that victims have to endure is salutory and hopeful. That is the promise of Christ.
@xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - The EB was originally first hand accounts reprinted, not written down for the first time decades/centuries after the events (supposedly) happened and then reprinted
Many parts of the Bible were written by first hand witness or by authors who spoke with first hand witnesses. Christianity is a religion based on witness. What was witnessed was handed down through tradition and written Scripture.
@echois23@xanga - @Von_Bon@xanga - @xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - @discover_hienie@xanga - God bless you all for such sincere comments!!
@fallingraindrop@xanga - "That statement has it exactly backwards. Man is the source of suffering. God created him with intellect and free will. That means that man is responsible for his own actions."
If I am correct in my understanding of Christianity, God is supposed to be creator of all things, including free will. If people are supposed to give thanks to God for all the good things that they do via free will, why not also give God credit for the bad? It seems illogical to me.
"There may be no good in mass murderers, rapists and child molesters. I said that there is good in suffering. Therefore, the suffering that victims have to endure is salutory and hopeful. That is the promise of Christ."
If you were to say that to the family members and the victims, my suggestion would be to duck!
"Many parts of the Bible were written by first hand witness or by authors who spoke with first hand witnesses. Christianity is a religion based on witness. What was witness was handed down through tradition and written Scripture."
many were, but not all. there is still the issue of the constant translations that occurred over the centuries upon centuries. I remember how the game telephone ends from grade school.
thanks for the polite replies. I wish you all the best.
I really enjoyed your exposition and hope many others will see it and join in the conversation -
It lends Hope - and God knows we need it these days
@xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - If people are supposed to give thanks to God for all the good things that they do via free will, why not also give God credit for the bad?
I give profuse thanks to God for the suffering in my life. But it is because Jesus blessed human life and all that is in it, with his own life.
I do not thank God for the evil that men do, however. For men act of their own volition. It is Jesus who saves us from that sort of injustice by transforming suffering into a blessing.
@xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - If you were to say that to the family members and the victims, my suggestion would be to duck!
Oh no! Victims of crime are called to forgive. Forgiveness is another great blessing from Jesus.
@xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - there is still the issue of the constant translations that occurred over the centuries upon centuries.
The Jews and the Catholic Church have guarded and taught the Scriptures for millenia. They have been in good hands. Since Scripture is the Word of God, his Revelation of himself to mankind, it seems sensible that he would safeguard it.
@fallingraindrop@xanga -
"I give profuse thanks to God for the suffering in my life. But it is because Jesus blessed human life and all that is in it, with his own life.
I do not thank God for the evil that men do, however. For men act of their own volition. It is Jesus who saves us from that sort of injustice by transforming suffering into a blessing."
My comment was about origins of good and bad deeds. many christians give thanks and credit to God for the good deeds that they did via free will. (some even try to tell athiests good deeds they do are because of God) It still seems unreasonable that evil deeds done through free will would not also be due to God.
"Oh no! Victims of crime are called to forgive. Forgiveness is another great blessing from Jesus."
They may be called to forgive, but I wouldn't expect any of them to actually forgive them.
"The Jews and the Catholic Church have guarded and taught the Scriptures for millenia. They have been in good hands. Since Scripture is the Word of God, his Revelation of himself to mankind, it seems sensible that he would safeguard it."
I was raised Catholic, the only thing the Catholic Church protects is their own butts. That's why one of the priests that was charged with child molestation in my town is now teaching in another state, but they told us he was removed from the church. All men desire power, especially organized religion.
I agree with you. Any and all crap we go through here on earth isn't permanent. When we get to Heaven and see Jesus our Lord and Savior, all pain and suffering will be gone. Over. Finished. It will be worth the awfulness in our old lives when we meet Jesus face-to-face. It is very hard very often to live in this world but it is only temporary. We need to remember that!
but not consecutive. articles have not been spliced together to create a timeline or narrative.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - articles have not been spliced together to create a timeline or narrative.
The articles in the Encyclopedia Brittanica have been ordered from A-Z. The Books in the Bible have been ordered to the A-Z of Revelation.
The Bible is God's Revelation to mankind. All the writings were assembled by the Catholic Church (created by Jesus) and examined. By the authority given to it by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church picked the Scriptures of Revelation. Those works became the Bible.
There is nothing spliced in the Revelation of God about himself. That's what the Bible is. It is not a history book nor a science book. It is the story of God's Plan of Salvation for man. It is Revelation.
When looked at in those terms, the Bible is perfect.
@fallingraindrop@xanga -
"The articles in the Encyclopedia Brittanica
have been ordered from A-Z. The Books in the Bible have been ordered
to the A-Z of Revelation."
if you agree with the Documentary Hypothesis, the process involved a lot more than just ordering. sources and authorship are not restricted to specific books.
"When looked at in those terms, the Bible is perfect."
from the perspective of faith, sure. but that's hardly objective if faith is a prerequisite.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - "When looked at in those terms, the Bible is perfect." from the perspective of faith, sure.
But that is exactly it! Revelation is all about faith. Faith is the organ with which man sees the work of God. It's built-in to us. Reason is excellent but it has no capacity to treat the infinite.
Very interesting to find this topic continued from my own personal study this weekend and a sermon I heard. Personally, I believe that all things come through the hand of the Lord. He didn't cause Job's suffering, but He allowed it. Some suffering is the result of living in a fallen world. Some suffering is the result of someone else's choices. Some suffering is the result of one's own rebellion and disobedience. However, the Lord can and will use all suffering for good in the life of the believer IF we allow Him to. See Romans 8:28-29 and Eph 1:11-12
@fallingraindrop@xanga - well, i don't have faith. to me, the Bible is a spliced-up collection of different types of literature from different sources and time periods. it's an interesting read, especially since i'm an Ancient Studies major, but that's about it.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - well, i don't have faith.
Jesus would only perform miracles on people who had faith. So your not having faith presents the greatest of obstacles.
to me, the Bible is a spliced-up collection of different types of literature from different sources and time periods.
But almost every author splices, shuffles and rearranges his work in order to tell his story. Remember that the story of man's salvation took place over millenia. That there is such incredible coherence and meaning in the Bible after all of that is incredible!
@fallingraindrop@xanga -
"But almost every author splices, shuffles and rearranges his work in order to tell his story. "
sure, if it's all one author's work. the Bible was not even compiled by one person, much less written. different accounts can be distinguished in a single book, as opposed to more of an anthology (like the EB), where each separate source and author would be maintained.
"That there is such incredible coherence and meaning in the Bible after all of that is incredible!"
not really. both Judaism and Christianity had centuries to manipulate the text in whatever ways they wanted. what is incredible to me is that, despite that level of editing, they still managed to miss a few discrepancies.
I think that you made many great points. It was well written and well supported. After reading through all the comments, I am even more impressed with your reactions :)