Tuesday, 11 August 2009
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Do We Understand What it Means to be a True Christian?
On the recent Revelife post entitled What is a "Christian?" -- From a Nonbeliever, bluecho@xanga commented:The problem exists because people blindly follow doctrine and dogma, assuming the teachings of Christ are absolutely true, but never asking themselves why it is true. In order to be a true Christian, you have to be able to look outside yourself and your faith and determine what makes the Bible the word of God. Most so-called Christians don't even read their Bibles or try to create a relationship with Christ, they just say they are Christian when, at best, they're probably just theistic. People need to learn to think outside of broad categories. Just because you believe in a God doesn't make you Christian, just as it doesn't make you a satanist for not believing in God, although theologically you might as well be.
Most people have no idea what it means to be a real Christian, and the numbers that do are always dropping. I think that, if I'm fortunate enough to enter heaven, it will be a pretty uncrowded place.
Do you agree with this comment? Have many of us missed the mark in understanding what it means to be a true Christian?
Thank you, bluecho@xanga, for your valuable imput to this discussion.
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Comments (35)
is it the case that a true christian must be a rational Christian?
I'm failing to see a point being made in that paragraph. Are you asserting that you've encountered individuals that claim to be Christian but act under the Agnostic idea of an "anonymous God?" In any event, I really think that you're taking an extremely traditionalist, and almost egocentric stance on the idea of developing a relationship with one's God. Is it not the idea of the Christian faith that God granted people autonomy so as to allow them to truly experience the richness and freedom of life? In that regard, shouldn't individuals be encouraged to embracing life through the values supported and expressed through the faith rather than strictly abiding by a set of human-interpreted guidelines based upon said Word?
There is a Bible story that I can recall from memory about a pious man and a thief. The thief asks for forgiveness and the pious man argues that the thief is not worthy of such treatment. He exclaims that he has prayed and fasted ad-nausea, and is therefore "more entitled" to a spot in heaven. God then favors the thief for recognizing his mistake and acting humbly, whereas the pious man has acted proud and brash without accepting it as a fault.
The message there is that the message, not the traditions, are what makes a Christian faithful. Get off your high horse.
ah certainly. language is from Lucifer himself. God's language is very simple. Yes or No. And the only path to understanding his language. Learning. Choosing. Doing.
a true HUMAN, who is a Creation, regardless of CREED has two functions. Realization. Rationalization. The problem with today's thinking. Mostly about Rationalization. Rationalization that has lead most to believe that being perfect was every attainable, in any form. Nothing in life is EVER perfect, therefore, having only Rationalization will lead to a sense of perfection, but that never came from God. Only one person. His name, "The Bright Morning Star"
I don't know. If you listen to most of what is posted and commented upon here on Protestantish, nobody is a true Christian.
Absolutely! Below is a wiki paste that sums it all up. It's focus was American youth but in truth it fits American adults as well
Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, sometimes abbreviated MTD, is a term coined by the authors of the National Study of Youth and Religion directed by Christian Smith at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill to describe the common religious beliefs among American youth.[1] The team found that many young people believed in several moral statutes not exclusive to any of the major world religions:
1. A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
2. God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
4. God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
5. Good people go to heaven when they die.
These points of belief were compiled from interviews with approximately 3000 people
"heaven, it will be a pretty uncrowded place."
i believe that part. i think that there are a lot of people out there that think they are Christian....but are not.
with that said, i don't generally agree with much else. especially this part:
"In order to be a true Christian, you have to be able to look outside
yourself and your faith and determine what makes the Bible the word of
God."
in fact, to me, that is the opposite of Christianity. its not about looking outside of yourself or your faith....nor is it based on any rationale that makes the Bible the word of God. at the end of the day, to be Christian, you need faith...from God.
What makes a person a true Christian is their confession of Jesus Christ as their savior and trusting in His grace for salvation. That is the beginning of a relationship with Jesus. How we cultivate that relationship (as with all others) is up to us. That is the part where many Christians get off track. They think all they need to do is accept Christ and they're "in". That is true, in part. But God wants a relationship with us. Non-Christians see many Christians who claim to be Christian but don't live it and it confuses them. That's where the problem lies. Not all Christians are like that, though. I know many (and hopefully myself) who desire to and work to live as Christ wants us to.
@aspire_achieve@xanga - Hello, That parable comes off very different in the original language. When the thief (as you put him, he was really a tax collector) speaks he says "Have mercy on me the sinner!" The words "have mercy on me" are better translated "be propitiated to me". That term "propitiated" shows that the man knew that he needed someone to stand in his place in order to be forgiven. Someone to pay his penalty for him. With this understanding the parable becomes nothing about acting faithful or trying to live right. But rather about the gospel and how it is Christ who stands in our place when the time of punishment comes. The man who understands his need for propitiation before a Holy God is truly humble and goes home justified...
Grace and peace!
~Michael
I don't necessarily agree that Christians need to be rational, really. A lot of instances in the Bible there were callings of God's people to do completely irrational things, such as go fishing in the middle of a hot day, walk off a boat, or ask a rock for water. So, being always rational will really not yield the full fruits of Christianity, which based off of faith and trust in God beyond rationality. However, I do agree people need to start doing research on Christian doctrine and religion if they are going to reach out to other religions or atheists that have done their homework. I think individually though, rationality is not always the best course of action.
Anyhow, in regard to the gist of the post, I agree. You can call yourself a Christian if you have never read the Bible, but you can't say you were a Christian for 5 years if you haven't read the Bible for 5 years.
@aspire_achieve@xanga - I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the poster of pride.
@MC_Shann@xanga - I appreciate the clarification of the parable, but I don't believe you've refuted my point. Do you honestly believe that one's faith should be judged most strongly on one's strict adherence to the old traditions of reading the Bible, fasting, not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, etc.? I don't understand when simply being a good person and following Jesus' message of peace started falling towards inadequacy.
For clarification, I do not call myself a Christian, so don't interpret my argument as that of a disgruntled follower.
@golai@xanga - I'm pretty sure that there are no levels associated with "how good of a Christian" one is. It is not the pride that the poster associated with being Christian that I am condemning, but rather, his judgment of others that have not chosen to abide by the faith in the same manner as he has outlined. I still believe that "God" has, at the root of "existence," given humans the freedom to live as they see fit. It is through these means that one can follow the influences of "good" and "evil," which is the only way to validate the presence of evil in a world created by a "perfect being." If we are granted the freedom to live and the capacity to distinguish right from wrong, then what exactly is the significance of following such old fashioned traditions that have little relevance in today's society outside of one's own self comfort about the unknown and afterlife?
I think we come with too many arbitrary prescriptions on what a True Christian means. Following John and Jesus' teachings, a true christian lives in the "light", doesn't hide his works, lives righteously, etc. Don't get me wrong, God wants us to be rational and intelligent, but attaching rationality or verifying our faith with "true" Christianity seems off. A true Democrat isn't a rational Democrat. It's just someone who consistently sides with democrats. So why should a true Christian be one who looks outside his faith and determines what makes it work?
I should add that one cannot get outside his faith without making it disappear, and I believe that it's by faith (by revealed knowledge of Him) that we understand God intimately; once we get "outside" of our faith, nothing can help us determine why God is real. Analogous to this is that we cannot get outside of consciousness and observe another person's consciousness. We have to be conscious in order to understand consciousness. We have to have faith (revealed knowledge) in order to understand that, as well.
@scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel - would you say that a protestant is a false christian?
The answer to the question is yes.
But what's up with the comment? Â I don't understand the point being made.
@aspire_achieve@xanga - So... you take that one story and ignore what the rest of the Bible says about being a Christian?  Or about Jesus being the only way?
@Strong_Protector@xanga - All I did was use one passage from the Bible to support an personal opinion. The Bible is a book of stories, metaphors, and symbols; the point of the book is that within each tale is a message concerning how to be a better person. I truly think that the idea is not to literally "follow the Jesus," but rather, to follow his example. Notice how my slight misinterpretation of the passage I cited completely altered its context. This is a problem that happens all too often because people hold the Word in such high regard that they understand its text too literally.
So please, I would love to hear exactly what the Bible says about being a Christian.
I think there is a distinction to be made between a Christian who isn't being a very dedicated example of Christ and His way, and someone who just isn't a Christian.
I'll recognize that it is possible that too many Christians fit that category. I'll also recognize that many people claim Christianity, when all they really mean is "I believe in some kind of God, and Jesus probably has something to do with Him."
But I get the idea that you are suggesting that in order to be a true Christian, one has to get everything down to a science. I don't agree. Christ doesn't require that we know everything(although it is wise to learn as much as possible)in order to get to heaven.
We don't need to know why something is true to be able to claim it as true. Again, its a good idea to continue learning as much about it as possible to be more effective with the truth, but my knowledge of why something is true doesn't have anything to do with something be true or me being able to claim it as true. I don't know why my computer crashes everytime I gently lean on the right corner of it, but I can say with all certainty that it is true that my computer freezes everytime I gently lean on the right corner of it.
Salvation requires even less knowledge than my computer predicament, because over and over again we are told in scripture that salvation comes through faith, which is belief in the unseen. To say that one must know why it is true in order to get to heaven is a system quite contrary to Christ's and Christianity.
Being a Christian IS about assuming that all of Christ's teachings are true, more importantly assuming that Christ's person, life, death and resurrection are true. True Christianity is a faith, not a science.
@Strong_Protector@xanga - I think the post you're questioning is addressing the original post. He's saying that questioning too far could jeapardize faith - an even more integral part of Christianity than rationality.
I also wouldn't be so sure that all Protestants are not Christian, the same way you would say, for instance that all Baptists are Christians. Some of them under the name of Protestant may be Christian, some may not, same with all denominations. The correctness of ones denomination does not show whether or not a person is saved.
@aspire_achieve@xanga - Questioning the Bible is not something we should be doing. I can understand what you mean, though. Sometimes what the Bible says is laced with cultural shades that no longer apply today. However, at the heart of even the most archaic Bible passage is the same God that applies to us today. Being able to see this part of "ancient traditions" can sometimes yield wisdom we would never be able to find otherwise. That being said, I agree that many traditions should not be treated with such reverence to the point where it becomes an idol. (Yes, the Bible becomes an idol)
@aspire_achieve@xanga - I do not believe that ones faith should be judged on how they keep traditions or laws. Certain things we do might be good signs as to where we are in our faith but the one thing that makes or breaks the deal is what the person actually believes about Christ. Are they actually trusting in Him to save them from their sins by His atoning sacrifice on the cross? It is not about trying to live as Christ lived (although it will be a result) but about having Christ as Lord and Savior. Does this make sense?
Like in the parable you mentioned, both men were clearly sinners. But the one who was justified was the one who saw his need for propitiation. That is the need for exactly what Christ came and did on the cross…
Grace and peace again,
~Michael
Ray Comfort coined the idea that Christianity isn't a blind faith... but it's a faith born out of reason... and honestly... I would have to agree... Scripture states for people to reason... Isaiah says, "Come let us reason together..." between God and fallen man...
Christianity states a few things about itself... One God Who created ALL... Man was created as a reflector of this God as stated "... let Us create man in Our image."... man rebelled against God thereby making God Judge as opposed to Father... God stepped into history to redeem man by dying on the Cross for the sins of mankind and man in order to be redeemed must receive this as a gift by faith that Jesus Christ did all that He did was sufficient for our justification by being the propititation for us... and through repentance and a choice to turn away from sin and turn towards Jesus can salvation and justification be granted....
this definitely takes thought and reasoning... because it states a few things... it states that Man is imperfect and in need of drastic help... it states that God is in charge completely with destiny and eternity and not man... and it also states that man CAN receive a new nature if one has repented and one has received Christ as Savior, Lord, and Treasure...
this is what makes someone a "true" Christian... the reception of Christ as one's Lord and Savior and Treasure... it's not about what one does but Who one trusts in... the question is will you? That is the definitive notion Christianity presents to the world... and then begs and pleads with the world to choose Christ...
@MC_Shann@xanga - That makes complete sense, and I apologize for having misunderstood you. I appreciate the conversation.
@golai@xanga - The one issue that I disagree with is the belief that we should not question the Bible. The Bible has been passed down through generations and re-translated countless times to the point where it has undoubtedly been altered from its original text. Assuming that the presence of God is beyond Earthly and human comprehension, then one can only conclude that the Bible itself is a human interpretation of God's edict. Therefore, it must be concluded that the Bible includes the faults and shortcomings that all of humanity is subject to. If anything, the Bible should constantly be questioned so as to truly discover its meaning as God supposedly intended it to portray.
I'm in full support of one's freedom to choose one's own faith. All I'm saying is that if one fails to question the rules by which one abides, then one inevitably falls to the ignorance propagated throughout history by those that have interpreted the religion before them.
@aspire_achieve@xanga - Agreed. I don't think that we should question whether or not the Bible is God-inspired at all. Its more of questioning the various interpretations that come out of it.
However, you'd be surprised at how well the Bible has been preserved through translations and the ages. If anything, that shows to me that God wants me to read something in this book, and that this book is from God. However, I would still be skeptical, as I said, toward any interpretations of the Bible. I think Bible stories, if anything, have "human interpretation" in cultural references that nobody in the 21st century no longer understands. I don't think that Paul was so much putting his own biases into the Bible; he was careful to say that anything he believed was not a legalistic law set in stone for everyone. Or, for that case, any Biblical author.
Agreed!!!
"Most people have no idea what it means to be a real Christian"
Actually, yes, I do agree.