One common theme I've heard in the church is that love doesn't always feel good, and that sometimes the truth hurts. But, since we love people, they still need to hear the harsh truth nonetheless. A parent's discipline doesn't always seem loving to a child, but it's (hopefully) best for the child. In the same way, we need to speak the truth to everyone, even when they don't like it.
I understand this mindset, but I think that this approach is usually, or at least often, counterproductive.
A lot can be said about this topic, and there are several factors (such as time) that could be taken into consideration, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll try to just stick with a couple of similar examples:
1. Kicking people out of church. The Bible talks about how you should approach your brother living in sin in private, and if he refuses to repent, approach him again with more people, and then with the church, and if he still refuses to repent, treat him like a pagan. I used to be part of a church that, based on these scriptures, kicked out a man who was harboring some bitterness in his heart due to his past. His bitterness was "causing him to sin", and affecting both his spiritual and family life. I have a few problems with the church's actions. The Bible says, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I know this church was not without sin. The Bible says treat others how you wish to be treated, and that you will be judged the same as you judge others. All I can say, is if certain Christians are going to be judged the same as they judge homosexuals, they're in trouble, (thank God for mercy and grace). But back to my example. This "hard, but loving" action had a devastating effect on this man's life. Bud most of all, kicking this man out only pushed him further into bitterness, and wrecked his family. Regardless of whether or not the church was acting out of love (I would suggest an obligated sense of duty would be a more accurate description), he obviously and understandably did not feel loved. Thus the church's action had more negative results than positive.
2. "You're going to hell." Some of my fellow Christian friends say things like, "Seriously how much of a jerk would you have to be not to tell somebody they're going to hell?" - the idea being that if you really cared about someone, you want to see them receiving eternal life. While such earnest statements are usually mostly stemmed out of true, honest concern, I can't help but question its beneficence. Some years ago I was wrestling with a lot of questions about God -- so much so that I was all but an atheist. My brother had preceded me in this development, however. One day when I went to church, a well-meaning friend came up to me and said something along the lines of, "Hey, how're you doing? You still following God? You're not following your brother's footsteps are you? He's making bad mistakes, he is." Although I didn't show it, I got pretty mad when I heard that. I love my brother, and I understood 100% why he was turning from Christianity -- especially since I had the same issues he did, as well as some of my own. This judgmental criticism of my brother and I only furthered my anger towards the church, and my issues with God. Like my last example, I use this example to suggest that however sincere and concerned you might be, telling someone they are going down the wrong path will probably only push them further away from you, and away from God.
3. The following is a scenario I was discussing with some friends of mine. Let's say your mother is dying. She's "not saved." You've preached the gospel to her many times, but she's always rejected it. You visit her on your deathbed; she only has a day or so to live. This is your last opportunity to try to "bring her to Christ." So you have two options: plead for her to repent and accept Jesus (this preaching to her, would be akin to hell on earth), or try to make her last days on earth happy. Based on all of your past experiences, you're 99% sure that preaching isn't going to accomplish anything. But you love her, and want to see her in heaven. So which is more loving? To do what would make her happy, what would make her feel loved, or to try to save her soul? When I was discussing this scenario my friends, I said that rather than to satisfy my spiritual obligation to try to save her soul, which I knew I would not be able to do, I'd rather make her feel loved. When I said this, one of my friends said, "But what's the point? She's going to die anyways." I was rather astounded at this statement. However, he had a point. If you believe someone's going to spend eternity in hell, what's a few happy hours on earth? Nevertheless, I was disturbed. Is that all Christians think loving people is? Saving people's souls? Is making people happy pointless in the eternal scheme of things?
So, all of that is to say, while I understand the "love isn't always feel-good" mindset, I believe that if the person you are loving does not feel loved, you should at least question whether or not you are really loving them. I think so-called love is pointless if the recipient does not feel it. They might not necessarily need to feel good, but they need to at least feel honestly loved. I would even say that if the person you are supposedly loving does not feel loved, then really all you are doing is loving yourself by satisfying your need to deal with someone's differences by pointing out what you think are their faults.
But what do you think? Does loving someone sometimes mean saying harsh things? Does the pursuit of righteousness require us to sacrifice making people happy? Is love looking out for the the interest of others based on how they think, or based on how you think they should think? Is it really love if the person doesn't feel loved?
Comments (27)
It's not love. It's discrimination.
I try to practice what I don't verbally preach. I try to show Christ's love rather than say it all the time. In my experience, the people who aren't saved are sick to death of Bible Thumpers and what have you. They are tired of being told they are wrong and that they're going to hell, a place they may not believe in so why should it bother them anyway? By being a friend to others, I have had people open up and tell me their thoughts and concerns about spirituality and ask me honest questions they've been curious about but have been too annoyed by other Christians to bother asking.
Love this post -WWJD?
...treat 'em like pagans.. love 'em feed 'em..eat w/ them - heal them of what ails them if you can...
flip a table and walk out if they dis your kin
then quietly give your life in sacrifice....
I would rather tell people how much God loves them rather than scare them about hell...I mean I know that they'll have to hear about that some time, but to start off telling people about the punishment rather than the reward is only going to make people convert out of fear, or for the "fire insurance" rather than love for God. We are called to speak the truth in love and not be surprised if the world hates us for doing so, but I agree that we need to question our methods.
What Would Jesus Do?
Hahah, as cliche as this question is, I think it serves its usefulness especially in regards to questions like these :)
The Bible talks about speaking the truth in love. Sometimes we need to say things the other person does not want to hear. But it does not mean we don't love them. Feeling loved doesn't always have something to do with whether or not the person IS loved.
I disagree with the mom example completely. I would never want to send my parent into eternity with the idea in my head that I hadn't tried one last time. You never know what God is doing; that last time could be the time they accept the message. I believe the position the post takes discounts the utter, totally unfathomable horror of eternity without God. I don't care one bit if my mom has warm fuzzies before she dies; I care whether she has a chance to see Jesus instead of spending forever in inexpressible agony and torment. That's love; giving warm fuzzies in that situation is the total opposite of love. It's hate.
And yes, the most loving thing I could ever do is give someone the opportunity to be saved. There is certainly more to love than that, but helping someone be rescued from eternal torment and ushered into the arms of Christ is the greatest love I could ever give. The Bible tells us that the greatest love a man can have is to give his life for his friends. May we, as Christians, do that daily. Sometimes it means making someone feel the exact opposite of warm fuzzies, which is a huge sacrifice for us but is real love instead of doing what will make us feel good.
Of course, God's love, where true love comes from, is warm and safe and gentle and makes us feel good. But it is also strong, especially when it needs to protect us. I have heard the example of a small child running out in traffic. The child's mother may yell really loudly and sternly for her child to come back, because she knows that her window of time is short before her child is killed; the child may not understand why her tone is so strong, but it has to be that way. In the same way, God's love may not "feel" nice to a person who is about to enter eternal torment, but that love is the only thing that can pull them back from the edge of hell. Once the child comes running back to the mother, she can wrap her arms around him and explain why she yelled so sternly; in the same way, once a person turns to God, He never fails to put His arms around them and bring them home. Of course, sometimes God chooses to bring a person to Him simply by comforting them because that is what they need; for others, though, He has to shout to bring them back.
I believe that love is a matter of the giver's motivation. The definition of love is not "making someone happy." It's way better than that. Love means seeking the very best for the person you love. That's what God does, and that's what we are called to do at all times, in all places, and for all people.
Very thought provoking post. Thanks.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I know what you're saying, but I can't help but wondering if I was the "mom" what would motivate me more to consider salvation - a child who keeps preaching to me or one who wants me to feel loved? I think if I was pushed I would push back, but if I were loved I would want to experience that for eternity, you know?
@rachelserine@xanga - I definitely believe in presenting the truth in a Godly, loving way (not a mean or self-righteous way), but I don't agree with not presenting it.
Re: the points above.
1. Love longs for sinners to come to repentance and grow in Christ-likeness. Love won't allow someone to remain in sin. When we tell someone about their sin, they may not perceive it as loving, but it is what is best for their soul. God's commands for holy living are given to us because they are what is best for us.
2. Love will warn someone that apart from Christ they will end up in hell. Love wants to see everyone saved. When we tell someone they are heading to hell unless they trust in Christ, when we tell them they are sinners and need to have the blood of Christ to save them, they may not perceive it as loving, but it is what is best for their soul. There is no salvation for men apart from believing on Christ.
3. Love will attempt to minister to dying soul in both deed and words. I think you've set up a straw man here. We can help meet the person's physical needs as well as minister to their spiritual needs. Everyone's greatest need is that they are born separated from God and they need the salvation that only God can provide. Everyone will end up in hell apart from God unless they are reconciled to God by believing in Christ. If you look at a few days of comfort here vs. an eternity in hell, there's really no comparison.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I agree with this. That is true love. People focus too much on feelings. God honestly does not care about our feelings when it comes to HIS truth. Sometimes, you have to be honest with people and the truth does not always make us feel good. But that doesn't mean it wasn't something we needed to hear and something that would make us better off in down the road. I think the problem that many of us have is that we care too much about feelings: how we're going to feel if we say something, how they're going to feel if they don't like what I said or did. If we study God's word and seek him for guidance, we will know how to approach people. How they take it is their business but at least you know you did what God would have for you to do.
@naphtali_deer@xanga - you also made a key point. I don't understand why they have to be separate. Does sharing the message of salvation with them cancel out the "warm fuzzies" or however we're referring to it? Christ cared for the needs of the people but he still gave them the truth. It doesn't have to be an either/or.
@kilikijay@xanga - Yes, that's exactly it.
...grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17b
Steadfast love and faithfulness meet;
righteousness and peace kiss each other. Psalm 85:11
The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation. Exodus 34:6-7
Men are all guilty before God and deserving of death. They are accountable to God. That's God's justice/judgment/righteousness. Yet God provided His Son as a propitiation for sin, that whosoever believes receives His gift of eternal life. That's His mercy/grace/love. So He is just and the justifier of all who believe in Jesus.
This is a difficult, but very thought-provoking post. I think this is one of those rare times when the WWJD question can actually be very useful.
hmm well, i have had harshness in my life.. a lot of truth that came out thru love... i do believe that when a person critcize you they have a reason to, but we all do commit sins.. sometimes not soo great
@kilikijay@xanga - Probably, yes. I mean no disrespect, but allow me to give the perspective of a non-believer (and by this, I only mean someone who is not Christian... this person may still believe in God). Let's create a hypothetical character, and call her Linda.
Linda grows up in a Christian household. She goes to church, maybe even attends Sunday school. As she gets older, she encounters other religions. She meets people who are atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, other Christian denominations, Unitarians, etc.. She listens to their arguments, listens to the factions bickering back and forth. She puzzles over the concept that God would condemn someone to an eternity of hell just because they didn't believe (or weren't exposed to) one very specific set of religious beliefs. Eventually, Linda comes to the conclusion that God may or may not exist (she believes God does, though) and if He/She/It does, God is above our petty religious sparring. She doesn't think Jesus is God's son, no more than any other human being over the course of history that has claimed the same thing. She rejects the God in the Bible because she thinks jealousy and wrath are unlikely traits in the Divine. Over time, Linda refines her outlooks on divinity, drawing on her life experiences, finding richness in the rituals and holidays of her the religion of her youth, but taking wisdom from others, as well. She occasionally gets offers from people to tell her the "word of God", but she kindly refuses and explains that she knows about Christianity already; after all, she has grown up in a Christian household, in a country that has Christian holidays as federal holidays, and has the capability of viewing all the information you could possibly want on the subject with a few clicks of her mouse.We find ourselves later in Linda's life. She is dying, surrounded by the many friends of many faiths whom she has accumulated over the years. Everyone is sad, telling them they love her, and she'll pull through, all that. And then her Christian friend (and no one else) comes forward asking her to reject every religious lesson she has ever gathered in her life and accept Christianity to "save her soul". Let's call this friend Sarah. Well-meaning as her friend's statement might be, Linda feels this is an insult to her intellect because she has literally spent her whole life thinking about faith, and here is her friend, not only asking her to throw all of that careful study and consideration out of the window, but speaking as if Sarah and Sarah alone knows the mind of God. After all, if the situations were reversed, and Sarah were on her death bed, Linda would never be so crass as to question Sarah's faith at the most impolite of time! Kinda kills the warm fuzzies, wouldn't you agree?Now this situation is a little more... dramatic... than your average conversion attempt but it is no less insulting in most other situations. Non-Christians are not necessarily idiots, and we're not ignorant; we realize that Christianity exists, and we've probably studied it in depth. You, as an evangelizing believer, are most likely not telling us anything we don't already know and have considered. It's fine that your search has led you to this place as a believing and practicing Christian, but don't assume that because we have not come to the same conclusion it is because we are missing some vital piece of information, or God is waiting for an opportune moment (why would he?), or we just need someone who is really convincing to preach at us.@ithiliya@xanga - That is where the issue of faith comes in. It pretty much all boils down to what you choose to believe. God is the creator of all things and before the fall of man, we all belonged to Him. He created us to commune with Him and that's all he wants from us. He cared enough about us to send his son to die for us to redeem us back. He doesn't WANT anyone to go to hell but no one can reap the benefits of God's love if they choose not to accept it. Sure nobody wants to believe that the God of the universe would condemn someone to hell but he is a just God. If the only stipulation for salvation is to believe that Jesus is the son of God (God in the form of man sent for the sole purpose of redeeming His lost souls) and that he is the only way to be saved and we choose not to, God has no choice but to leave us to suffer in the hands of the god that we served... He is a God of his word. That's like with anything, there is truth and there is false but just because you choose not to believe something does not make it any less true or false. We will all find out in the end whether or not our truth was THE truth. That's all there really is to it.
If I were another religion the last thing I would want is someone trying to convert me on my death bed. Having my own beliefs stomped all over would be insulting.
As an atheist I'd be irritated, but if it were someone I cared about I might give it a shot since I'm about to die anyway and it would make the person I cared about feel better. But I would not know if it would be a halfhearted attempt at pretending, or really trying to push myself into the belief before I go.
@kilikijay@xanga - You're completely correct. You and I have both an equal chance of being wrong or being right. So why insult someone's intelligence like that, especially on their death bed? Like I implied in my hypothetical, no one would tell a Christian on his or her death bed "You know, you're probably just going to be worm food. It's pointless for you to believe in heaven or hell" or "Before you die, I want you to discard everything you believe in and agree with me that you will be reincarnated". I'm all for theological debate, but that's not a debate. It's telling a person "I'm right and you're wrong. End of story. If you don't agree with me, you're going to be tortured for eternity." (Besides, I'm not sure someone's death bed is really the right place to have a philosophical/theological debate.)
This isn't a matter of faith. You can have as much faith as you want. If it makes you happy, I'm all for it! Rather, it's a matter of forcing your faith on others under the assumption that you are trying to help. It doesn't help. It just pisses us off. Everyone knows about what Christians believe. We all know about the concepts of heaven and hell. Like I said, you're not telling us anything we don't already know, but it's still presented to us as if we either a) haven't heard of this Christianity thing before or b) just must not have heard it from the right person - after all, when presented with Christian belief in a friendly and convincing manner, what reason could you possibly have for rejecting it? It's like asking someone if they've heard of Pepsi, because, you know, it's the best cola out there, and if you don't agree with me, God will punish you! (To continue with this analogy, a person might respond that of course they know about Pepsi, it's advertised everywhere... and they think A&W root beer is better, and don't believe that God is that petty.)
"Sure nobody wants to believe that the God of the universe would condemn someone to hell but he is a just God."
I don't see anything "just" in forcing someone to spend forever being burned alive and torn assunder with no chance of escaping because they believe in a slightly different theology than the average Christian, or they just never were exposed to Christianity. In the whole world of philosophical theology and its history, if all viewpoints were represented in a pie chart equally, Christianity's set of doctrines and dogma would only be the slightest of slivers, and the rest of the pie chart may seem incredible similar to the Christian sliver to the unbiased eye. That is to say, there is an entire universe of religious belief outside of the Christian faith, and there isn't that is too much different when you boil it down the basics (for example, Wicca and Catholicism are far more similar than most of their practitioners would believe, but tell that to most Wiccans and almost every Catholic and they will freak out!) Is it really fair or "just" for God to have you tortured for ETERNITY simply because your attempt at figuring things out landed you outside of that tiny Christian sliver, even by just a little... especially considering that God has provided us with absolutely no guidance, unless you count the myriad of different religious texts out there, all supposedly written with God's inspiration and command, and very few of which actually agree with any other? Why would God care if you envision the Divine as a dancing woman, or a multi-armed elephant, or a bearded guy riding a cloud? ... especially care enough to condemn you to hell! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get into such a tangent. I mean, I understand the draw of Jesus' compassion... he said some pretty awesome things. But I do NOT understand how you can look at the ever-changing and highly-debated conditions for entering heaven, see the only other alternate destination (hell), and conclude that this is "just". This is like forcing a 2 year old to live in a burning bee hive for the rest of his or her life for playing with a toy that one parent told them they could touch and another told them they couldn't.
@ithiliya@xanga - God is just in punishing sin. He can't not punish sin. He is a holy and perfect God. It goes against His character to allow sin to go unpunished. Men have have the witness of God, so they are all accountable to Him, they are without excuse (see Romans 1). His judgment on sin is just and right. Everyone stands guilty and condemned before a holy God. But here is good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the grace and love God provides: He invites everyone to come and believe on His Son so they might not spend eternity in hell but live with Him forever in heaven. He punished sin on His Son. That's why Jesus died. His death wasn't a martyr's death, it wasn't merely a nice example for us of self-sacrifice, it was the necessary and sufficient sacrifice to save men from the just punishment for their sins. There is no other way for men to be saved but by the name of Jesus.
@nekorinchan - Seriously. That phrase has been so overused that people have forgotten to even listen to what it was asking people to do. Sad day.
Nice quote in your "About Me"
I just recently discovered Nietzche's quotes, and I think he seems like a pretty cool dude.
I just wanted to chime in and say that mercy triumphs over judgement as Revelation makes clear. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and they will replace the old. All will be new again so the idea that God will be a vengeful God punishing all that sin goes against everything the cross represents. Those who believe in God's mercy will be saved by it. Those who don't will manifest themselves into their own punishment. Many mystics believe that and CS Lewis also believed that as he wrote in the Great Divorce. I recommend everyone should read it. It's a great book and it does a masterful job about explaining hell w/o the vengeful God that punishes a person because they don't follow every detail.
When I look at heaven it's gonna be filled w/ a lot of people that should be disqualified for all the evil they did. Saul before his conversion to Paul persecuted and stole land from Christians culminating in the murder of the first Christian martyr (after Jesus) Stephen. David (a man after God's own heart) killed thousands, cheated on his wife, had a man killed and nearly got his capitol destroyed because he took a census God told him not to take and raised children that raped, created coups and a whole host of other things.. That doesn't even include the fact that he was one of the worst father's in biblical history. I could keep going here but God seems to like the broken and twisted among us and that seems to culminate in God saving people from themselves and the world. All that believe will be saved but I don't think it's in the way that conservative Christians think. I know God is bigger than that.
God is bigger than we can ever imagine. The Father I know is big enough to let mercy triumph over judgement.
p
It's like the five love languages! I feel love one way, but that doesn't mean that It's not there. I as a human simply don't feel God's love all the time because I am not like God. He is a lot different and knows what I need, vs what I want or what feels good. He also makes sure it's not all gloom and doom. The joy of the Lord is a wonderful thing!
You can absolutely be loved even if you don't feel loved. To argue that Christians aren't loving because they speak out against sin is the most ridiculous argument ever. But there are definitely ways of communicating Biblical truths(or any kind of truth) that may be unloving.
I am not being loving if I say to a heroin addict"you stupid junkie, if you keep that up you're gonna die of a nasty disease!" But am I not being loving if I tell him that I happen to know that the needle he is
about to inject himself with is infected with a deadly virus?
I am not being loving if I run around mocking and belittling people's sinful actions, suggesting that their sin makes them inferior and therefore they are going to burn forever. I am being loving if I tell people that sin will destroy our lives, both here and in eternity, and that we can look to Christ for new life. That still may not make everyone feel good, but it is loving.
People are cool with a God who is all powerful and loving, as long as His "love" is displayed by Him only using His power to give them what they want as they see fit. Otherwise, He can't possibly be loving or powerful. Of course, this makes for a very lame God. Actually, it makes for a well trained dog with super powers.
@naphtali_deer@xanga - I'm not saying that God should give everyone a free pass. I'm sorry, but that was NOT my point at all. My point was the degree of punishment, the "black and white" of the concept, if you will, is NOT just. I'm certain, as a Christian, you understand the gravity of Hell and the belief that it cannot be escaped (once you're sent there, I mean). I will refer you back to my example of the contradictory parents who force a child to live a life of agony for listening to the wrong parent. To condemn someone to an eternity of suffering, with absolutely no chance of escape, for doing something that they may not have even been aware was wrong is not in any way, shape, or form "just". Forgive me for being so authoritarian in my previous sentence, but I cannot understand how anybody could see a punishment like Hell as "just" for any offense except the very, very worst (and even that is debatable). It is even less "just" when you add the belief that you and I could offend in the exact same way, but you get to Heaven because you "know Jesus" and I go to Hell even though I (hypothetically) have never even heard of Jesus. How is that "just", that you get to escape ANY punishment whatsoever and I get the most horrible punishment imaginable, far outstripping my crime? Why do you, in this hypothetical, get eternal bliss and I eternal torment because you saw a god where I just saw one more opportunistic man in a long, long line of crazy and/or opportunistic people? If you believe that is how God works, fine, but please do not call it "just"!!!
"Good news", indeed! "Good news" would be God coming to Earth and announcing the existence of the Divine beyond a shadow of a doubt, putting an end to 2000 year old mind games. "Good news" would be the end of all war, hunger, or poverty. Jesus forgiving your sins and saving you from a Hell that God condemned you to, especially for the smaller sins, is a lot like a cop ripping up a speeding ticket that would have cost you your license when all you did was drive with a broken tail light. You didn't deserve the punishment you're being saved from in the first place!