Thursday, 16 July 2009

  • Roman Catholicism: Praying to Saints Makes Sense

    As I understand it, the Roman Catholic concept of "praying to saints" is grounded in a series of assumptions common to Protestants as well.  As such, there's no problem reconciling Protestants back to the Catholic church over this issue.

    Think of it this way.  It is natural to ask one or more people to pray for you when you are struggling with something.  Why do we do that?  Do we assume God is more responsive to more people praying?  Does prayer have a power that magnifies with the number of people involved?  Perhaps.  But the point is, our practice of prayer is based on some assumption that makes it sensible to ask others to pray for us.  That's what Wednesday night prayer meeting is all about.

    Now, it also makes sense that we especially appreciate the prayers of those we hold in high spiritual esteem - I will ask my pastor to pray for me before some on-again/off-again Christian.  James tells us that "the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective."

    What is more, if I know someone in the church who has dealt with the specific issue I am going through, I will especially appreciate their prayers, as their insight will benefit the clarity and intensity of their prayer.

    Finally, many Christians (though by no means all) assume that the righteous dead are in God's presence while also aware of what is going on with the living.  Even if you don't assume that (I'm not convinced one way or the other, to tell the truth), I've never been aware of a Christian making a real issue over the belief. 

    So on the basis of all those assumptions and practices, it makes sense that someone would be willing to ask the righteous dead (that is, the saints) to pray for them, in the hope of influencing the way God acts in their situation.  What is more, those particular saints who have experience with particular issues would naturally be expected to have keener insight and take especial interest in those situations. (St. Benedict's enemies attempted to poison him; so he is thought of as the "patron saint" against betrayal by poison.)

    Praying to the saints is sometimes twisted by the superstitious and ignorant into a sort of heavenly game of who's-who, so that the better connections you have the better your life will go.  And it is sometimes divorced from the overall theology of the church so that the saints themselves seem to have power to answer prayer, as opposed to become fellow petitioners of God.  But those counterfeits don't undermine the valid practice of acting on the promises of God to surround us with "a great cloud of witnesses." 

    I'm not asking anyone to pray to or ask for prayer from anyone if they don't want to.  By all means, work out your own salvation.  But also do not judge another's servant, for it is before their own master that they stand or fall, and their master is able to make them stand.  At the very least, praying to saints makes sense. -NDSR

    Revelife's question: Does this defense of praying to saints make sense to you?

Comments (87)

  • XxCheshireGrinxX@xanga

    Yes. I think of it as kind of praying to our ancestors like they do in Eastern cultures

  • Amarisa@xanga

    It makes sense.  Prayer, in that sense, is not worship, but simply spiritual communication.

  • harmonyminusmelody@xanga

    well considering prayers go directly to God, no it doesn't make sense. i can't pray to my pastor for his intercession, and praying to dead people makes even less sense. if prayers are to someone else, they don't stop by that person in heaven. they just don't get delivered because prayer is from us to God. we don't have to ask someone else to pray for us, and we can't pray TO anyone else to somehow recruit them in helping us. 

  • chilled_roses8523@xanga

    Definitely!
    Prayer is not limited to words or actions, but emotions, feelings and learning to commune with God and with one another.
    Its not just because I'm Catholic as well.
    I know that Spirits that have passed have not lost 'their touch' in this world; it's not just the Saints of the Church either.
    I believe that my close family that has passed away, (grandparents) are still praying with me to this day.

  • chilled_roses8523@xanga

    @harmonyminusmelody@xanga - 
    it's 'asking for their intercession'
    I'm sure you've asked your pastor for their intercession for something. That's pretty much the concept of it

  • lifeforgiven06@xanga
  • anonymous

    you wrote:

    "... the righteous dead are in God's presence, aware of what is going on with the living. ...I've never been aware of a Christian making a real issue over the belief."

    Seriously? Am I the only one going cross-eyed here?  Makes me wonder how many Christians you've actually talked to. As for me and my world, this is a *huge* issue. Huge!
    Anybody else?
  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    @harmonyminusmelody@xanga - well considering prayers go directly to God, no it doesn't make sense.


    If one considers that God is family and that he created us in his image and that we have eternal life then it does make perfect sense.


    Family always pulls for one another.  Praying in community is most pleasing to God our Father.  Understanding the nature of things makes communal prayer something as natural and right as rain.

  • musterion99@xanga

    Imo, asking someone here on earth to pray
    for you is different than asking someone who has already died. What if
    100 different people are praying to the same saint at the same time.
    How could that saint hear everyone's prayer? Only God has that capability.
    And there's no example or scripture from the bible of any Christians
    doing this.  Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:19, that if any two agree on earth. It seems that if God wanted us to pray to saints that have already died, he would have told us to do that.

  • naphtali_deer@xanga

    Does it really make sense to pray to dead saints? Here's what God says in Deuteronomy 18 about communicating with the dead:

    There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.

    Notice it's listed among child sacrifice and sorcery, and it's also called an abomination to the Lord.

  • scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel

    It's a shame that Revelife has featured this good post. It's ruined now with the anti-Catholic bigot stink of this place. Too bad.

  • Faithful_Spot@xanga

    @scrambledmegzntoast@hardestlevel - Ohhh, I don't know. It seems pretty half and half so far with people who agree and disagree, or possibly more people who agree with it than not.

    As for me, I also agree with harmonyminusmelody@xanga. I don't know too personally the Catholic faith, though I do have a few friends who are Catholic, but it seems to me that praying directly to a saint didn't make too much sense. I used to ask God to tell a relative who had died that I loved them, and wished I could have met them, but as far as praying directly to the person, it seems a little.. um... off to me?

    But it's like, we're humans. We can't really talk mind to mind. I think praying has a lot less to do with us /sending/, and a lot more to do with God /listening/.

    And, I suppose, that's just me. I think we'll all understand when we get to the other side.

  • xsimplepleasuresx@xanga

    @musterion99@xanga - I'd love to know how you can claim to know what capabilities God possesses, and for that matter the capabilities of any saints or angels.  I for one wouldn't dare claim to know what those in Heaven can or can not due, for the simple fact that I would not be speaking from experience or knowledge.  But perhaps I am being a bit harsh because you did specifically mention it was your opinion.


    @harmonyminusmelody@xanga - I don't know about you, but as a former catholic I prayed to anybody I wished.  If you didn't gain that ability, I'm sorry.   I'd also like to know how you gained knowledge of how prayers are processed once they leave your mind.  My assumtion is that you have no knowledge of this and are portraying your opinion as fact.  Given this assumtion I can understand why others can find sense in praying to saints.


    @Faithful_Spot@xanga - think of praying to saints/loved ones as more like praying to a guardian angel to watch over you.

  • rectangularprism@xanga

    Personally, I don't agree with the whole concept of praying to saints or to anyone dead (or anyone alive, for that matter). I believe prayers should be to God alone. I know that Romans 8:26-27 says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and Romans 8:34 says that Jesus Christ intercedes for us. I do not believe that the practice of praying to the dead (or asking the dead to intercede for you) lines up with the Bible. However, I believe that at the end of the day, we're all accountable to God. So do what your own conscience permits and what you believe is in line with the word of God. 

  • Samaritan74@xanga

    Hi, great post. I'm learning a bit about Catholicism at the moment. And one of the things that is hard for me to understand is this idea of praying to saints. It seems kind of weird. But I like the way you've discussed it here, in that it's just asking somebody else to pray for you. I also love the fact that, as a Protestant (I presume), you are willing to look at Roman Catholic beliefs, instead of just saying they're bad because they're Catholic. I think, whether you're a Catholic or not, the Catholic Church does have a lot to teach us. They've been doing the whole Christianity thing for a very long time.

  • nicolevw@xanga

    @chilled_roses8523@xanga -  I believe that the saints in heaven are inteceding for us, praying for us as the "cloud of witnesses" spoken of in Hebrews.  However, can they hear my prayers?  I'm not sure there's any Biblical evidence or Biblical support for that.    I think that @musterion99@xanga brings up a good point ---- God is the only ONE who is omnipresent, omniscient and allpowerful.     Humans aren't ....even the glorified saints aren't.  So that said, how could they process the prayers of even a few prayers let alone hundreds or even thousands of them?

  • musterion99@xanga

    @xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - I'd love to know how you can claim to know
    what capabilities God possesses, and for that matter the capabilities
    of any saints or angels.

    haha - The bible tells us that God is able to hear all our prayers. Nowhere does it even insinuate that when we die we can do that. It's just flat out illogical. I'd love to know how you can claim otherwise.

    I for one wouldn't dare claim to know what
    those in Heaven can or can not due, for the simple fact that I would
    not be speaking from experience or knowledge.

    I believe what the bible says. I showed you the verse from Matthew, and again if this is what God wants us to do, he would have told us to do it and showed us examples in scripture of others doing it.

  • musterion99@xanga
  • xsimplepleasuresx@xanga

    @musterion99@xanga - The bible tells us that God is able to hear all our prayers. Nowhere does it even insinuate that when we die we can do that. It's just flat out illogical. I'd love to know how you can claim otherwise.


    lol, it is my understanding that most religious faiths do not always rely on text for there religious beliefs/practices, and that many leaders are influential in the beliefs/practices of their members regardless of the religious texts they may hold as truth.  I have not read the bible from cover to cover, so I can not lay claim to know for certain what is and is not included.  I myself being a former believer and now agnostic find no logic in any heaven or hell, I make no claim to know one way or the other as to how it would work, I was mearly presenting an alternative perspective for consideration. 


    I believe what the bible says. I showed you the verse from Matthew, and again if this is what God wants us to do, he would have told us to do it and showed us examples in scripture of others doing it.


    Given my agnostic belief, reliance on Biblical quotes means little to me, but If I came from the same perspective you do, I can see logic in your arguement and would agree with you. However from my perspective I view the bible as a book that has been translated and retranslated several times, which calls into question the veracity of it.

  • chilled_roses8523@xanga

    @nicolevw@xanga - 
    i agree with your statement, God definitely has the upperhand in 'hearing?' prayers; but views on the afterlife and the lives of people when they pass is still very much a mystery, that still allows endless amount of debate, wonder and (my favorite) dreaming. So with our without biblical support, its still a fact that really anything is possible with a Spontaneous God that has slowly, but surely revealed himself/herself? through the years.

    @xsimplepleasuresx@xanga - However from my perspective I view the
    bible as a book that has been translated and retranslated several
    times, which calls into question the veracity of it.

    I agree with your statement as well. That is a very sensitive, but true statement about the Church and its history in its interpretation and views on God. A fact that is not only true in Christianity, but in all of the great faiths

    One would really have to ask, 'What's a Christian without a Bible?' What's a Muslim without the Qur'ran? What's a Hindu without the Bhagavad-Gita?"

    Nothing?

    It's a question that relies on faith beyond the borders of the Great Books; a faith that finds that the most important answers are found in the questions asked.

  • musicmom60@xanga

    @rectangularprism@xanga - I completely agree with you, and although I have heard the argument that "it's like asking people on earth to pray for you", I don't quite buy that.  We are human and alive, and praying or communicating with the dead is something that is forbidden by Scripture.  We are not told in the Bible that the dead in Christ possess any ability to communicate with us, to hear our prayers or to intercede for us, but it does say that the Holy Spirit and Jesus will intercede for us.  This is why I pray to God alone.  Why bypass the direct line to God that we have, and go through someone else?  The curtain has been torn; we have direct access to Him.  And I believe that God already knows how he's going to answer prayers, so will more prayers actually change his mind?  Sometimes he says "no", sometimes "yes", and sometimes "wait."  Can we change the mind of God?  I don't know, but prayer should be the cry of our heart to him, communicating directly with Him - that's how Jesus taught us to pray.

  • GodsBelovedAng@xanga

    @LoBornlite@xanga - The problem with the assumption that being a part of the body of Christ making you family means you should be praying even after your dead means that you receive no rest. Plus, God says prayer is our personal communication with Him because he can't be in our presence as we are sinful. God's presence in this world is known as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and they send the Holy Spirit to do the work, this is what Christ tells us as he is leaving. He says he is leaving so that God can send us the great helper which is the Holy Spirit who will teach us all things and interpret our prayers to God. He alone interceeds on our behalf. This is why Christians pray to God the Father the Son and Holy Spirit, not just God the Father and the Son. Yes we are family but no, the dead aren't ours to ask to pray for us because they are at rest and they are not watching us from heaven. they may be aware of what is going on, but not ways we can understand. They have no concern for the living because we are still wrapped up in earthly things. They are enjoying the rest of God, separation from the pains of this world. If your grandma was in heaven and saw you going through cancer or rape or something, do you not think it would effect her? It would be a horrible thing. To say God would put the dead through having to monitor the living would be terriblely trying and grevious for them, which doesn't line up with the idea of heaven and rest.Even Solomon was quoted when he was raised by a King Saul on the outs "why have  you awaken me from my slumber." 

    The other problem is that if we are praying to them so they can pray for us, we are insisting that they are listening to us, monitoring us, watching us. Since all Catholics are praying to the same saints for help at the same time, it insinuates that they can hear everyone at the same time, be at every church at the same time, and process each need and interceed at the same time! God says HE watches over us and each hair on our head. Do you think that the saints are equal to God? Do you think that even now, before we are going to be brought into perfection of the second body on the day of the resurrection of the saints, that they have been given equal abilities to those of God, even assuming they were actively running around in heaven right now? 
    The only reason God hears us is because he loves us enough to interact with us and he not only hears our prayers but also our every word, which we will all be accountable for some day. Satan cannot read our minds but he can hear our words if he is listening which is why he has various demons he scouts over us to keep track of what is going on. Satan, demons, men, and dead men are not Omnipotent or Omipresent which is what praying to saints is implying.(that the saints were all those things too in order to listen to everyones prayers at the same time.) We should pray, a deed that God created for us to communicate to him our problems and concerns, to Him. On earth, we don't pray to the people we ask to pray for us, asking them to pray.

    While intercession here on earth is a valid point because we are all men and all living in the lesh God requires us to pray . In heaven if you really believe they are resurrected and actively living, they would have to pray still to talk to God? Doesn't the Word say that heaven is going to be a marriage and that every one would be able to have a marriage relationship with the omnipotent Omnipresent God? He would be able to be with us in his actual presence because we would be without sin, so WHY on earth would He continue to limit us to having to pray? Worship I could understand, but still having to pray to talk to him?
    It also says that God is not a respector of persons and that no man is greater than any other but that of Christ who sits on the right hand of God. Every man has completely equal access to God through Christ. Saints are simply men who have died after following Christ to the finish, as have many martyrs of this that and other generations inbetween.They don't have an equality with God and won't even equal with Christ until  until we all will be resurrected at the Judgement Seat of Christ where he judges the living and the dead believers. Also, the Word tells us that we have the Great High Priest of Machelsideck which clears us of having to have a priest to come in intercession between us and God, so saying Peter as Paytron saints of the Jewish catholic church and Paul as the father of the Gentile catholic church, isn't validation to say we need to pray to them for help getting redemption, help, or special attention. If you add it saying you just want to get some help through prayer, it makes no sense because you then bypass God as being all powerful and instead create a chain of "prayer" to other people (yes people, not even god, though we elevate them to that stature by praying to them). Instead of a prayer to Him being sufficient you are simply implying that he needs help by getting the saints to convince Him your prayers need action taken or that you are worthy of being listened to.

  • TropicalOceanSunset@xanga

    Jesus is THE intercessor. There's no reason to pray to a saint when you can just pray to God directly.

    And I think there is a difference between praying to a saint, and asking your friends (or whoever) in joining you while you all collectively pray to God.

  • GodsBelovedAng@xanga

    @Samaritan74@xanga - Since you are learning I'll give  you a big inside tip. The Catholic church isn't Christian. They actually denouce Christianity as not having acknowelded the Papal authority as the higest in the Spiritual rank which is basically that He is the Holiest man on earth, some even say he is equal to Christ while on earth. They (these are terms specifically given to us by the vadicant) also say that they think we don't have the lineage to even present a valid claim to the priesthood. They claim our salvation can't be true because we don't have the approval of any major Apostolic lineage. -'Dominus Iesus' (2000), "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church.(2007), Nihole Winfield, "Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches," Associated Press, 2007-JUL-10, at:http://www.washingtonpost.com/, William Cardinal Levada, "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican, 2007-JUN-29, at:http://www.vatican.va ,
    Richard Owen and Ruth Gledhill, "If it isn’t Roman Catholic then it’s not a proper Church, Pope tells Christians," The Times Online, 2007-JUL-11. at: http://www.timesonline.co.uk"


  • templestream@xanga

    The previous comment makes sense by @sweet11321@xanga. She did some research. But  Reading most of the comments, it's pretty wild to see how many people either don't know or care what the Bible actually says!  Jesus said Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” (Rev 3.10) It seems that many people will be going through the tribulation unnecessarily, quite sad. :(


    Praying to dead saints is one of the many traditions tacked on to the scriptures. If you care more about human traditions than the lifestyle outlined in the scriptures, sure it makes sense, as does bowing down to Mary statues and counting Rosary beads, etc. But........if you follow the advice of the scriptures, you won't find anything advising this or even one single example of this, to my knowledge. Saul, in the OT was an exception. He wanted to communicate with a dead believer, Samuel. But you know, that didin't go over too well with God, actually it cost him his kingdom and his life.


    When the disciples asked Jesus for advice on prayer, what did he say? "If you have a problem with money or stupidity, pray to Solomon, he'll fix you up with some good wise intercession and some fast cash." No way man. He said what? Pray to "the Father." (Matt 6.9-13), that's the example he gave. Is the advice of Jesus not good enough for you? 


    James, Jesus' brother, was pretty slow. He didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God until after the resurrection, but even he knew that if you want to pray for something, you pray to God "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." Ja 1.5 - Seriously, a lot of you who follow men's traditions more than the scriptures, maybe you should take James' advice and pray to God for wisdom.  "...there is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2.5)


    Matthew 15.9 seems to sum up the idea of praying to dead saints, not found in scripture: "But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men."

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