A reply to
3 Ways That Christians Can Approach Atheists Better. While I agree with much of what the author said, the post also made me notice a trend that has become rather rampant on Xanga and "ish" sites: it seems that Christians have become rather masochistic. Many Christian bloggers have gone out of their way to criticize the church and organized religion as a whole. I, too, have written about the hypocrisy of Christians and the silliness of some cardinal beliefs that seem irrelevant in the big picture (i.e. method of Creation).
While self-criticism and satire can be healthy and helpful, I think that there's something subliminal at work. I don't think most Christians even realize they are doing it. That subconscious "something" is this:
We are trying to appease non-Christians. We are intent on showing them that we're not all "like that." We don't all endorse murdering abortion doctors! We don't all hate Obama! Some of us even think that that Darwin fellow was a rather swell guy!
Now, this isn't all bad. It's good to get our personal beliefs out there, to start discussions that broaden horizons. Unfortunately, there's also the masochistic side. Some Christians have taken the full burden of this debate on their own shoulders. We make lists about "Why Everyone Hates Christians" and "How to Present Yourself to an Atheist." Yet, if I remember correctly, atheists share a part in this ongoing feud as well. Why should Christians be the only ones worried about making a good impression?
Therefore, without further ado:
3 Ways That Atheists Can Approach Christians Better
1. Don't assume Christians are all idiots
I can understand how certain Christian viewpoints may seem foolish or downright idiotic to non-Christians: 7-Day Creation and belief in a One True God being two examples. Well, allow me to let you in on a little secret: telling us we're idiots does not work. I'll give you a second to recover from the shock...
Seriously, do you like it when a Christian tells you you're going to hell for not believing in God? No? So, how do you think doing exactly the same thing with different terms will be effective for making us see your side?
2. Don't tell Christians they need to learn to laugh at themselves
Many Christians know how to laugh at themselves. I have yet to find a church youth group where a majority of the kids don't love
The Simpsons or
Family Guy. Personally, I believe that Ned Flanders is a pretty accurate stereotype of uber-conservative Christians. His character is (or at least was, at some point) satirical. His eccentricities were meant to show Christians how silly they can be sometimes and to motivate believers to tone themselves down a bit.
Satire is one thing. Blasphemy is another beast altogether. Watching Bobby Hill call everyone a fornicator and sinner only to learn he's going about saving souls the wrong way? Satire. Watching a womanizing God get drunk, accidentally kill a woman, and shout at Jesus to start the getaway car? Blasphemy.
If you are satirizing Christians to expose a flaw you wish to fix, then your target audience should laugh at the alleged flaw and seriously think about it. If you are just making fun of Christians just because you think they're morons, then they have every right to be angry. No right to sue you, but a right to be angry.
3. Don't generalize
Not all Christians are uber-rightist Republicans, anti-abortion, intolerant, 7-Day Creation believers. I don't believe all of that is necessarily bad (one exception), but it seems to be the stereotype nowadays. When you judge us the moment you learn we're Christians, you've immediately lost us. Expect an angry "crazy-person" tirade.
The main point I want to make is that this feud is a two-way street. Christians shouldn't be the only ones responsible for changing their tune. I've seen an equal amount of stupid rants, verbal/emotional persecution, and hypocrisy perpetrated by Christians AND atheists. The burden of debate falls equally on both opponents. To borrow a parable of Jesus (ironically), take the plank out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brother's eye.
Christianity and atheism both have some massive planks in their own eyes that they should inspect before criticizing one another.
Comments (133)
@quicksandbuddy@xanga - Duh. What else would we do?
@LoBornlite@xanga - There's no way to point out specific errors, the whole thing is an error.
It's not that there's a problem with Christians. It's not that there's a problem with atheists.There's just a problem with people.
@RazorBladeParade@xanga - There's no way to point out specific errors, the whole thing is an error.
That, good man, is another irrational proclaimation!
I believe that if we all were taught in the ancient way, we would have access to our incredible human intellect. Then the existence of God would be self evident. When God becomes self evident by means of reason, well then, there is no limit to where our faith can take us!!
@thirst2@xanga - I give. I won't get anywhere with you and I don't feel like arguing about so basic an idea.
What do you mean "I give!" You've given nothing!! There is a hunger in the hinterland for the reason behind your thinking. Be charitable. Be magnanimous. Give something, for crying out loud!
@chalktarget@xanga - Huh? Western Civilization is mostly rooted in Greek and Roman ideas with a heavy dose of Christian and empirical (in the scientific rather than governing sense) thought in the mix.
If it hadn't have been for Christianity preserving and assimilating Greek and Roman culture then it would have all been lost.
I repeat: Western Civilization is a result of Christianity. Without Christianity you'd be Muslim.
@quicksandbuddy@xanga - You two are doing a superb job of proving my point..
Your point is that there can be dialog under certain conditions. My point is that those conditions are a contrivence.
There can be no dialog with people who reject God. Those people have to be met in the battlefield (the battlefield of ideas in this case) and destroyed.
You are what is called a "harmonizer." That personality type does anything, including compromise basic principles, to get opposing factions to come to terms.
Where fundamental differences are concerned, that just leads to greater chaos and instability down the road. The atheistic philosophy must be confronted and completely destroyed wherever and whenever it rears its ugly, spiteful head.
@LoBornlite@xanga - It has nothing to do with your "ancient way" or God, it's about YOU constantly using this "ancient way" to degrade people who don't have the same opinions as you do. THAT is not intellect, that's just bigotry.
@RazorBladeParade@xanga - It has nothing to do with your "ancient way" or God, it's about YOU constantly using this "ancient way" to degrade people who don't have the same opinions as you do. THAT is not intellect, that's just bigotry.
Another proclaimation. Another personal attack. I have addressed the idea of atheism and what it does to the human being. This is the antithesis of bigotry. It is the exposition of truthful ideas.
The "ancient way" is that of the Greeks; Aristotle in particular. Weren't you the one who mentioned the Greeks?
It seems to me that Jesus shared God's truth and love in a way that the two were inseparable. We fall down at separating them.
"for God so loved THE WORLD (even atheists) that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever would believe Him, would not perish but have everlasting Life."
Any fool can hate and act ugly. Who will love and lay down their life for the world God still loves?
the Greeks love to reason, the Jews seek a sign, we preach Christ crucified --- to the Greeks foolishness; to the Jew a stumbling block; to me life and liberty.
John the Baptist said of Jesus," He must increase, but I must decrease"
Would you allow your self to be decreased if it meant Jesus would increase?
@LoBornlite@xanga - "I believe that if we all were taught in the ancient way, we would have access to our incredible human intellect. Then the existence of God would be self evident. When God becomes self evident by means of reason, well then, there is no limit to where our faith can take us!!"
If you can get there solely through reason, there is no faith. If God had intended us to be able to get there solely through reason, we'd be able to. Christianity is not obvious or logical, and that is by design.
"If it hadn't have been for Christianity preserving and assimilating Greek and Roman culture then it would have all been lost."
It'd be pretty tough to make that case without a circular argument, and there's no way to rerun the experiment with different variables. Someone so inclined could probably argue just as well that the repositories of Greek and Roman literature in the Muslim world were at least as important, if not more so in the eventual birth of modern Western Civilization. It just so happened that some Europeans looted those treasures in the name of Christianity, and some other Europeans took the time to translate and read them once they made their way back to Europe.
"I repeat: Western Civilization is a result of Christianity. Without Christianity you'd be Muslim."
Repeating it doesn't make it so. Without Christianity, Islam probably wouldn't be a major world religion. Without Christianity I'd probably be a polytheist of Greco-Roman descent or a quasi-spiritualist of Confuscian descent.
It amuses me that's it's always Christians and atheists duking it out, as if there are no other diametrically opposed viewpoints.
How about we start with everyone trying to approach everyone else with courtesy, at the very least? There's a Japanese quote that goes something like, "Courtesy for all. Respect for some. Fear of none."
@chalktarget@xanga - If you can get there solely through reason, there is no faith.
That is not what I said. This is what I said: "When God becomes self evident by means of reason, well then, there is no limit to where our faith can take us!!"
Reason is limited but faith is unlimited. However, faith must be grounded in reason. Faith alone leads to the disorders of irrationality and fanaticism.
Faith grounded in reason leads the human being to the will of God.
@chalktarget@xanga - Without Christianity, Islam probably wouldn't be a major world religion.
That statement is an insult to Islam. Islam is a world religion because of its own qualities.
Without Christianity I'd probably be a polytheist of Greco-Roman descent or a quasi-spiritualist of Confuscian descent.
The Islamic Jihad tore out of Arabia like a plague during the 7th century. Because Rome had fallen there was little to stop this plague as it conquered Asia Minor, North Africa and Palestine (all peaceful Christian lands).
The Spaniards fought for 770 years to expel the Muslim plague from their lands. Charles Martel in what is now France, is responsible for keeping the plague from conquering Europe. He smashed the Muslim infidel at the Battle of Tours in 732AD.
@LoBornlite@xanga - So wait...I'm an "intellectually stunted slave?"
...I thought free will was a Christian thing... >_>
I find this post strange, at best. Christians are the ones who are trying to convert atheists as a part of its mission, not the other way around. Christians should be the ones who always engage with others with kindness and humility no matter what the others do. Christians crying "foul" for non-Christians not behaving like Christians is ridiculous. No matter who "slaps" us, Christians, we are never to respond with "an angry 'crazy-person' tirade" as the post warns.
@LoBornlite@xanga - You cannot just claim something is true because it is true. If we're talking about logic here, you're committing the fallacy of circular reasoning. Also, you're making just as many (if not more) antagonistic ad hominem attacks as @RazorBladeParade@xanga and all the other people you've been debating today. All you're doing is starting a flame war that glorifies no one, least of all God.
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - kinda what I was thinking.
@LoBornlite@xanga - I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I know what you said, but you're wrong. If God is self-evident by means of reason, there is no room for faith--it's pointless. In fact, faith would be foolish.
Whether faith must be grounded in reason is a different issue, and it's not easily addressed. In the end, it simply is not possible to arrive at a belief in God or in Christ's sacrifice through reason. Reason can help you examine the historical context of the Bible, it can help you examine the human condition and our place in the world, and it can even help you construct possible explanations for why people do believe in God--but it cannot provide a basis for that belief.
Faith is by definition a belief in something that cannot be known by reason. So it's not clear that faith must be or even can be grounded in reason.
Can faith be rational? Can we give "reasons" for our faith? Sure. We believe what we believe for many "reasons," but none of them stand up to the test of reason/logic. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion--the existence of God and the truth of Christianity would be an open and shut case as straightforward as evolution... Oh, but I guess that's just it. People believe illogical things and illogically refuse to believe other things all the time. It just so happens that when Christians illogically refuse to believe things that are clearly true (i.e., evolution), non-believers assume our illogical beliefs (e.g., God exists, Christ was resurrected, etc.) are of the same ilk.
It's important to note that illogical and impossible are not the same thing. Illogical just means that something doesn't fit with our understanding of the way the world works. And miracles certainly fit that description. All the people who try to provide a scientific explanation for miracles do much more harm than good. The point is that whatever they are trying to explain couldn't happen under the physical laws of the universe, or it wouldn't be a miracle--it would just be an event with a ridiculously low probability of occurring. And atheists have a field day when Christians try the opposite approach of assigning a miraculous origin to things that aren't in need of a miraculous explanation--when the scientific explanation surfaces, "God is reduced to a smaller and smaller box of phenomenon requiring His involvement."
@soy_esteban@xanga - I don't condone "angry person tirades," I'm just saying that if someone engages a Christian in an insulting or disrespectful manner, it's going to make that person defensive. As I stated in the post, one shouldn't generalize a whole group, so I'm not saying every Christian will do that. However, I've been on enough forums and seen enough real-world discussions to know that sane Christians can fly off the handle rather easily if someone antagonizes them.
People can't expect flawed human beings, Christian or not, to always keep their cool if they don't treat them with some respect.
@LoBornlite@xanga - .... No, I don't recall anything about Greeks. You might want to get who you're replying to straight if you're going to try presenting "truthful ideas." Lol
And your "exposition" is a personal attack to anyone not following the Christian religion. I stand by the statement that you are, indeed, promoting bigotry by making generalizations about how dumb atheists are based on the fact that they ARE atheists.
@soy_esteban@xanga - Agreed.
@Rain_of_Mystic_Sorrow@xanga - That works, too.
@quicksandbuddy@xanga - I didn't imagine that you condone angry tirades. I do expect Christians to keep our cool or hold our tongue. If we don't, then I expect us to seek reconciliation. Saying something to the effect of, "You brought it out of me," dismisses our responsibility to bear the fruit of the Spirit, especially self-control. We must keep the standard of what it looks like to be the people who are called "salt" and "light" high. The cost is great.
@Faerie_In_Combat_Boots@xanga - So wait...I'm an "intellectually stunted slave?"
...I thought free will was a Christian thing... >_>
Free will is a human thing. Human beings were created in God's image. That means they have intellect and free will.
The atheist denies God. Therefore she denies her own humanity. She denies her intellect and free will . If one has no free will than she is a slave.