Monday, 18 May 2009
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Advice Needed: My Boyfriend and I Disagree on When to Baptize Children
My boyfriend and I were discussing a book about religion I'm currently reading and somehow got onto topic is baptizing babies. I told him that I wouldn't baptize my baby. This mostly ties in with the Mormon belief that I was brought up believing and that is: babies are innocent. In the Mormon religion we are not baptized until we're 8 years old, that is when it's believed we know right form wrong. My boyfriend is Anglican and believes that babies are born with the original sin and should be baptized so he was very taken back with my refusal to baptize our possible future children. We have always agreed one various religious issues except this one. To me the idea that a baby is born with a sin is very upsetting, but what upsets me more are the reasons he gave for wanting our possible future children baptized:
- His mother would be sad.
- He wants the baby to be cleansed of sin in case it dies young.
- It's tradition.
I believe these are the wrong reasons. This is not what I believe baptism is about. Both of us agreed that we'd raise our children with the knowledge of all religions and allow them to decide for themselves which religion was best for them. So his insistence on a baptism really threw me off.
I think it would be very wrong to baptize a baby into a church that neither of us has any interest in. I believe being baptized is making a commitment to God that you will follow the teachings of the church etc. Doing it to please his mother is wrong, doing it because its "tradition" is wrong and doing it as a "just in case" kind of thing seems wrong. It should be done because it's what you believe.
I have nothing against baptism! I'm baptized myself, and so is my boyfriend. I just want to know if baptizing a child without any intention of being involved in that church is wrong. He says it's not, but that he sees how I think it is and he'll take that into consideration. He didn't even want me asking his parent's minister questions about baptism in the Anglican faith probably because it would embarrass him.
I may not be devote to anything, but I'm not about to disrespect a very sacred act such as baptism out of fear, tradition (that we're not even apart of) or not wanting to upset people. I believe that would be blasphemous.
What do you think about the situation?
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Comments (54)
#2 sounds very accurate of a fear and belief to me, Expecially if he really believes the child is born with sin. You need to recognize that he may have a different belief than you. Thats not a "just in case" moment, to him it seems he is cleansing his child. what is the harm in baptizing the child early?
I think it's honesty to refuse to baptize a child into a church when neither of you subscribe to that denomination and if neither of you have any intention of raising that child in that denomination.
--You're right, doing it to please a relative is wrong
--You're right, doing it merely because it's traditional is wrong
--Doing it as a "just in case" is not wrong from the standpoint of those denoms that infant baptize--if anything that's kind of the point, that baptism that early is to protect the baby's soul. But the fact that this is not the first reason he lists regarding why the child should be baptized, that would bother me.
I believe we're all born with original sin but baptism doesn't save us from our sin so I don't believe in baptising babies.
I agree with you that all three of his reasons sound like bad ones. Especially since the decision to be baptized should be made by each individual.
I'm with princess1505angel. Baptism doesn't save anyone. I believe in believer baptism. That is when you make a profess of faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior then you talk with your pastor and get baptized. Baptism is showing those around you that you have new life in Christ. Going under the water symbolizing burial, coming up out of the water, resurrection into new life in Christ. A baby, although born in sin, can't make that profess of faith or understand what baptism is. If you look in the bible to see when and why people were baptized you will see that you are both wrong.
I was Baptised as a baby, but it didn't make any effect on my life. Yes we are all born with original sin, but a baby is innocent until it understands what sin is right? Jesus is the only way into Heaven and it must be your childs choice to believe in Him, then to be baptized. I'm 17 and I was only just baptised this year in March. I don't think it would make a difference to anyone but you.
That's something you're going to have to decide with your boyfriend.
I'm not clear on all the different baptism traditions, but if you baptize the kids when they're babies, is there any rule that says they can't be rebaptized when they're old enough to make that decision for themselves?
All are born into sin, but baptism does not save you from sin. Baptism is a way to show that you are a Christian. Its a command from Jesus, that we are to follow after we get saved. You never see anyone get baptized before they get saved. They believed and then are baptized. I believe baptizing kids before they are saved is morally wrong because it could confuse the kid convincing them they are saved before they really are. It is personal conviction of sin that drives us to salvation, so if they think that baptism fills that need of saving them how can they really get saved.
I agree with you on the point that babies are born innocent. They're born into a sinful world, but until they begin to sin themselves they aren't actually sinners. Being baptized doesn't save someone. If a man were to kill someone and get baptized, would that mean that he was saved from all past sins including the murder? If so, then he could do that over and over and over - always doing harm to others, getting baptized again, therefore being cleansed completely of sin. I don't believe that's how it works.
All three of his reasons are, as you said, bad ones.
I think it makes sense to wait until they actually understand what's going on before doing that. The act is pointless unless they agree with the religion.
I was baptized as a Catholic when I was a baby, and then into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (always long to say), when I was 19. My baptism as a baby was symbolic and did not remove sins. As you already know, children who die are saved through the Atonement of Jesus. That same sacrifice becomes active in our lives as we repent and follow Him, not once, but every day. Baptism by proper authority is like our signing our name that we accept the covenant and relationship He offers us.
You entered into that covenant and have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. He will lead you into all truth as you prepare yourself to receive it and strive to live by it. I would recommend that you and your boyfriend listen to the missionary discussions. If nothing else, your boyfriend will then know why you believe some of the things you do. But it is possible, as happened for me, that the Holy Spirit will witness to your boyfriend’s spirit, as well as to yours, that what you were taught as a child has been, still is, and will always be true.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - Great answer. I completely agree.
I'm not sure my opinion is going to help at all, since I hold a different view than both of you, actually.
Baptism doesn't save anyone; being baptized will not make you a Christian, and it can in no way gaurantee entrance into heaven. It's simply An outward expression of an inward decision. Meaning, once we are saved and put out trust in Jesus to get to heaven, Jesus actually commands us to be baptized. So it's a way to express a decision that you've made, to join God's family. It's being obedient to Jesus, but that's not going to make you a Christian.
So, I don't believe in baptizing babies, I believe that you should be old enough to actually make this decision for yourself, whenever that may be. And yes, I believe that babies are born sinful.Romans 3:23 says that "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." It doesn't say that when you reach a "magical" age, you suddenly become sinful. It's our sin nature, and everyone has it.
In short...I believe that: babies are born with sin, baptism should be done by the believer after they are saved, but baptism doesn't actually save you.
Neither, let the kid decide when he is old enough if he wants to embrace religion.
study baptism in the Bible - it occurs after a person makes a profession to believe in Jesus. Also look at Jesus' baptism. It did not happen as a baby.
Whether or not you do baptize is clearly between you and your
boyfriend, though his view doesn't appear to Biblical support. The Bible is pretty clear that people believe before being
baptized. Baptism is an external picture of an internal occurrence. If this winds up causing a large rift, a bigger problem could be under the surface.
I found a couple of articles that should be good starting points of research. This article talks about original sin and children. This article discusses infant baptism.
Per the infant baptism article:
"Many Christians who practice infant baptism do so because they
understand infant baptism as the new covenant equivalent of
circumcision."
Baptism doesn't save.
And all have sin(ned). Read Romans. Chapter 8 verses 38 and 39 I think.There's no examples of infant baptism in the bible. As squanto said, it's something you do after you've turned from sin.
Infant baptism is just an excuse to try to 'slip a baby into the kingdom of heaven' in case it dies before it's old enough to make the right decisions for itself. It's a ritual to try to 'fool' God or imply that a ritual can give you eternal life in itself.
But if God was that unfair then why worship him in the first place?
In the Christian religion, there are two sacraments - the Lord's supper, and baptism. (Under the Old Covenant, there was the Passover, and Circumcision.) Both of them are earthly signs of a spiritual reality.
The Baptist view focuses on individualism. "This is a sign of what has changed in me."
The Paedobaptist view, however, focuses on God. "This is a sign of God's Grace toward man."
The New Testament points to Old Testament examples of Christian Baptism: Noah's ark, and Israel crossing the Red Sea. Noah and his family entered the ark, by way of God's commandment, and passed through the falling waters by God's Grace. This is God's picture of baptism as per Romans, coinciding with Genesis chapters 6-9. There are many, many figures in this, but suffice it to say that the flood was God's great judgment upon the wicked, who were submerged and drowned. God washed the world of ungodly men with the great waters from heaven, and saved eight, passing them through the waters by way of His mercy.
As for Moses and the children of Israel, all passed through the waters of the Red Sea. In Exodus 12:37, we read that there were "about 600,000 men on foot, besides children." Chapters 13-14 give the account of the Red Sea.
Each time, God initiated a conduit through which man was saved from the waters of His wrath; and in that conduit is the sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, to which baptism is also linked. In each case, baptism was a sign of God's covenanted children, whom He promised "an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled..."
Baptism is not a sign of individual salvation - if it were, how can we read that some who are baptized receive the Holy Spirit afterward? Can one be saved without the Holy Spirit of God? I should say definitely not!
Therefore, baptism is a sign of God's Grace to man - which is promised to our children (Acts 2:39, 1 Corinthians 7:14, Genesis 9:9, Genesis 17:7, Isaiah 59:21) - and not of man's individual experience.
There is a certain common misunderstanding of the New Testament accounts of baptism. Some claim that no infants were baptized, but that is adding in what the Bible does not say. One thing is clear. The commandment is to "Repent and be baptized." Just as all are commanded to repent, all are commanded to be baptized. One Apostles even says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) At this gathering, which was Pentecost, there were commanded to be men with all of their sons! This would have been the first New Testament occurrence of infant baptism, as we can understand from Peter's next sentence which proclaimed, "For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
God's signs never point toward God's people, but always to God's Grace - that is, to Christ, who is our Baptism, our Circumcision, our Passover, and our Bread of Life.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - "Baptism doesn't save anyone."
The Bible clearly rejects this idea:
Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. - I Peter III:xxi
And again:
Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. - Acts II:xxxviii
Baptism is a symbol of your child's faith in God, and God's grace toward your child.
I grew up in the Baptist tradition, and always believed in what they call "believer's baptism." I struggled for a little while when i first started attending a church that practices infant baptism. But then i remembered something: God is "bigger" (for lack of any other word) than we are. God exists outside time and space. "When" a child is baptized is arbitrary. Just because the child was baptized before he came to a faith in Christ, does not mean that baptism is any less a symbol of that faith and the grace he has received.
After i realized that, something else hit me: The only difference between the Baptist tradition i grew up in, and the Congregationalist tradition i was called into, was when the water came into play. In the older traditions, a child was brought before the congregation, prayed over, dedicated to God, and sprinkled with water; and then, later in life, the child is confirmed into the faith. In Baptist and similar traditions, a child is brought before the congregation, prayed over, and dedicated to God, and then, later in life, the child is confirmed into the faith and dunked in water. Same events, different order. In debating the finer points of the execution of the ritual, we are missing the Point entirely, both of the sacrament of baptism, and of the Christian walk altogether.
If you do not believe in infant baptism, then just look at it as a bath and a blessing, believing that the baby's true baptism will come later.
I'd try to come to a consensus on what the proper teaching is together and then go with that.
My short answer is don't do it. I could go on, but I don't care to have that conversation strung out over multiple posts with people who disagree with me. If you are interested in a longer theological response, feel free to message me.
I'm sure it's been said, but I, personally, align w/ the Baptist Church's beliefs regarding this issue.
In the Baptist Church, babies are NEVER baptized. Why? Because it's symbolic. It's a choice each individual needs to make on his or her own - not their parent's choice.
Baptism, I believe, is not the saving grace - Jesus is. Someone pointed out though, that we are called to be baptized (I need to read further into that though...). Anyway, it's an act which shows some kind of reverence to God. It is also a more "formal" way to "publically declare the faith".
Anyway, I think you two should discuss this further and not just assume things about the other person and their beliefs (not saying you are, but religious beliefs are a pretty big issue that often lead to quarrels if not talked about!). You probably will need to find a compromise (I guess this is why the Bible says not to be yolked with unbelievers? It's not the exact same thing, but kind of. It's hard to be with someone who believes differently than you on issues such as these - ones that affect how you might raise future children). You'll need to come to some kind of agreement.
Maybe go w/ what the Baptist church does? The baby will receive a blessing when he/she is very young. Then, when he/she is old enough he/she decides on his/her own accord to turn to God and take the "final step" of publically annoucing his/her decision through Baptism.
*shrugs* Good luck.
Well I think that as a baby and at 8 you are to young to be baptized. Being baptized isn't about having sin or recognizing right and wrong. Being baptized is for when you realize that Jesus is your savior and he died for your sins and you want to commit your life fully to God. You can't do this as a baby and almost certainly not as an 8 year old either.
I was baptized by the Catholic church as a baby because my dad agreed with reasons #1 and #3 that your boyfriend presented (my mom didn't but went along with them), and it didn't have any negative affects on me. What's the big deal?
And sure, maybe they're not the best reasons, but why do so many Christian denominations hate on tradition so much? I see this all the time.
@lomal@xanga - I do agree with your baptism theology , but I do not believe in the mormons(church of latter day saints) view that it is ok to have more than 1 wife or that you yourself can be promoted to be a God. There is only one God and He will not share his glory or any part of Godhood with you
Every man and woman entering this world are a son of Adam or a daughter of Eve. From the bible we know that sin is passed from generation to generation through the seed. Baptizing an infant or even a young child does not fulfill the requirement spoken of by Jesus in John chapter 3 "one must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven" of (Spirit) and of (Water).....We can not be born of the spirit if we do not Repent of the sins, get to know Him and choose to follow Him. Clearly this is something a child can not accomplish. A child does have a free pass into Heaven if the child were to die young though. Clearly Jesus states you cannot enter Heaven unless you are childlike. It is truly a sad thing to think that tradition and rituals will save you. It is those very traditions and rituals that have steered multitudes from the truth. My recommendation to you is to find a quiet place and begin to read the Holy Bible start in John the baptist Chap 1 it will start like such "In the beginning was the Word" Spend some quiet time with the Lord and read this chapter and allow time for the Holy Spirit to guide you on this decision for your child. I allways advocate reading the truth for yourself rather than relying on man to steer you. When you pray to the Lord do not be so quick to say Amen and get up, spend some time listening for the Lord to give you an answer..