Because everyone seems to enjoy inferring arguments in my posts that I'm not making, I'll make it explicit from the outset on this one: This is to point out a single contradiction between two of the gospels. I am not attempting to discredit every word of the Bible, disprove religion, insult your mother, etc. Mainstream Christians probably won't even be phased by this. However, if you take the Bible to be the infallible Word of God, then this is meant to give you pause for a second. Aside from that, I just wanted to bring up a few points about how the gospels address this topic that might be of some interest. 
One of the easiest contradictions to find within the Bible is that of the two genealogies of Jesus, the first in Matthew 1, the other in Luke 3 (neither Mark nor John include a genealogy). In viewing the two (placed in convenient column format to your left), a few things should be apparent. Both start with David, and end with Joseph and Jesus (in fact, both trace David back to Abraham, Luke even going further back all the way to Adam, but since these parts of the account agree, they are irrelevant to the topic at hand). Aside from David and Jesus, only four names are shared between the two lists.
Matthew has 28 generations, and Luke has 43 between David and Jesus. This can be accounted for by tracing Jesus' lines through two different
descendants of David, Matthew through Solomon and Luke through Nathan. Presumably the lines cross again at Salathiel and Zorobabel, then diverge again until reconvening at Joseph, although it is never explicitly stated as such (maybe Salathiel and Zorobabel were common names back then).
Then we run into the obvious issue that Joseph seems to have a different father depending on which gospel you study. The common apologetic response to this is that one of these accounts traces Jesus' lineage through Mary. This would make sense at first glance, until one realizes that Mary is not mentioned anywhere in Luke, and only arises incidentally in Matthew.
The format Matthew's genealogy takes is straightforward, reading of the vein "Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud," and so on until: "Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born." The only reason the format changes at Joseph is because Matthew makes it quite clear that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth, so Joseph was not
technically Jesus' father. To claim that this is the genealogy of Mary becomes difficult to argue, since what is the point of having a genealogy if every single person listed isn't related to the person whose ancestors are being chronicled? Both genealogies clearly pertain to Joseph, not Mary.
More evidence for this view can be found when it is noted that not a single genealogical record of any woman within the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) or in any other part of the Greek Bible (New Testament). In fact, once place in the Bible, in Numbers 1:18, we are given an example for how at least this genealogy was assembled: "...declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers."
One of the main reasons Jesus' genealogy was included in these gospels was to fulfil the Jewish prophecy that the Messiah would be a direct descendent of David. Apparently for the authors of these gospels, being the son of the wife of a descendent of David was close enough. This again lends credence that neither genealogy was of Mary, since women were not entitled to be heirs to the throne of David, meaning Mary could not pass on what she never herself possessed. Knowing this about why these lists were put in, we see a problem with the list in Matthew. Jeremiah 22:28-30 has YHWH proclaiming Jechoniah "as if childless... none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David." If none of Jechoniah's children were to be part of the Davidic legacy, how can Jesus be if he is descended from Jechoniah's child as Matthew 1:12 states? Jesus would be under the curse of Jechoniah.
The final problem we find with the concept of these lineages is that of direct descent. According to Jewish prophecy, the Messiah would be a blood descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13, Psalms 89:3-4, 132:11). Obviously Joseph isn't portrayed as a flesh and blood relation to Jesus, so Jesus cannot be a flesh and blood relation to David through Joseph. Even if one does take Luke to be the ancestry of Mary, 1 Chronicles 22:9-10 tells us that the Messiah will also be descended from Solomon, but we see that the line Luke traces goes through Solomon's brother, Nathan.
Comments (112)
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - Yes, that was the one I was referring to. I didn't like jumping back and forth between pages to verify your logical fallacy so when it came time to point out what you said I figured that would be sufficient, which it was apparently. Go me!
You've repeatedly ignored the issues I have brought forth and have only tried to undermine my arguments through pointing out misleading uses of words which have had no bearing on what I wrote or pointing out logical fallacies that were not there. You also have presented nothing new in the last three days to support your own stance and therefore it is quite pointless to debate with someone such as yourself. You're seriously done and I'm quite done wasting my time on someone who seems incapable of changing their mind or supporting their own ideas.
@HLPU@xanga - If it comes from an authoritative source, a source that even quotes another authoritative source, then assumption of correctness is simply not happening. Maybe I should have pointed out that professors have primary sources for everything they say. They get fired if they don't. The wikipedia article quoted a primary source as well. I think it might be even the same source my prof quoted but I'd have to dig through four years of notebooks to check that.
Yes, you do have to assume some things. Like you have to assume you won't die today, because then there would be no point in mowing the lawn. Assuming someone has made a baseless accusation is only a good assumption for those who wish to be willfully ignorant.
Assuming that the originators of the bible spent years thoroughly analyzing and addressing issues in the bible is a huge assumption, especially considering how Christianity formed. Your argument that the errors would have been addressed in the thousands of years since its inception would only hold water with those thousands of years. Assuming it had to happen in the first few hundred years the argument doesn't hold much water.
There are very few things one needs to assume to do good things and you have gone way beyond that, repeatedly. You have never quoted a single source for anything you have said and I have. Can I assume your making stuff up? I still don't do that. I'm assuming you have some source, outside of the bible, but don't want to bother looking for it.
Everyone is a hypocrite at one point or another. You have yet to find hypocrisy in my statements but I'm sure you could find some if you looked really hard. Calling someone a hypocrite doesn't change the validity of what they say as well. The only way for someone to discredit their own bits of wisdom is by following that wisdom and having it fail them. Calling someone a hypocrit is an attack on someone's person not someone's statements. It may undermine their statements but it does not invalidate them. That takes more effort.
Assumptions can be proven wrong time and time again. But if you don't assume anything or assume very little it becomes much more difficult to be wrong. Assumptions tend to lead to errors.
@locketine@xanga - Once again you give no indication that you've ever taken the trouble to interact with, understand, or even read with any basic comprehension skills the actual positions that I've presented in the clearest possible English. As I've tried to tell you many times, the "issues and arguments" you "brought forth" have absolutely no bearing at all on the position I offered in my comments, which you apparently fail to grasp.
So, right back at you-- literally.
(Which is impressive, actually. Your words make your own epitaph pretty well, as any impartial reader would agree. Considering that most of this "debate" has been inside your own head against your own misunderstanding of things I never said, I guess I can see why that works.)
Still, it must take considerable debating skill to win an argument when you have to make up the opponent's position as well as your own. So enjoy your self-declared "victory" against your imaginary friend, whoever he was!
Just wow.
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - hahahaha. You're hilarious. It's been really fun but I must big you farewell. Good luck convincing anyone of anything with that attitude.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga -
"Ah, but then you'd dispute that it was Luke's handwriting, etc."
that'd only be feasible if we had a contemporary text with an opening line that flat out states, "i am luke, and this is my gospel" in order to compare writing styles. and even then, there's no way to prove the authorship of that text.
So you have closed off the matter since it is impossible to achieve your standard. OK, I get where you stand.
@locketine@xanga - And good luck being convinced of anything with yours. Best regards to both of you!
people won't take this at face value and they expect others to take genesis at face value? fuck this shit.
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - I get convinced of things all of the time. If you weren't so abrasive you might be able to teach me something. If you explained your position more thoroughly and actually tried to comprehend what I have stated you might be able to learn something from me.
I fully understand your position. You claim I do not but you have yet to tell me why anything I ever said was not correct. You simply attack me instead. That's a very good teaching tool I must say!
I'll take one less stab at this. Your position, as I understand it is "[The bible is an accurate source of information and knowledge because by the standards of the time it was written it was accurate. It should not be held to today's standards because it was not written recently.]" Please correct that statement accordingly.
@locketine@xanga - You mistook pithiness for abrasion and correction for attack, so I apologize that I gave that impression (though might I add an old saw about a pot and a kettle?).
I appreciate your last paragraph, and our conversation would likely have gone better if something like it had come earlier. However, it does indeed miss my point, pretty much completely, though not quite as dramatically as I'd suspected from your other comments about "literal truth" (an unfortunate phrase mainly used by those who don't fully understand the issues).
To rephrase your attempt, I would say:
"[The Bible is an accurate source of information and knowledge] according to the standards of precision that are in keeping with its purpose, culture, language, and historical context. [It should not be held to today's standards] when those standards are clearly foreign to the author's intent, so arbitrarily imposing them would be irrelevant and unfair. A book may thus be completely accurate without being (to our understanding) absolutely precise or 'literal'."
This, by the way, is not special pleading for the Bible but an essential part in understanding any form of communication. If someone said "I was freezing this morning" you wouldn't say, "No, you weren't literally turning to ice, and anyway why didn't you say 'The temperature was 35.8762 degrees Fahrenheit at 08:32:45:1024 AM EST'?" We know perfectly well what they meant, so they were as accurate as they needed to be.
Combine this with the facts I listed in my first comment on this thread:
- Every person can trace two separate genealogies of their own, for reasons that should be obvious.
- In Jewish culture, a married man is regarded as the "son" of both his father and his father-in-law.
- Matthew specifically states that he is using a limited number of generations since his purpose is to emphasize the epochs of Jewish history.
- etc.
and there is no good reason at all to regard this as an inaccuracy-- and certainly not a contradiction--on the part of the Bible writers. (One could very easily make the case that it is not as precise as it would be if it had been made by a modern professional genealogist, but in making that case you'd be agreeing with every conservative, inerrancy-believing scholar on the subject.)
Clear?
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - I wouldn't put much weight behind anything Ehrman says, due to his lack of trust in the accuracy of scripture in the first place. If you're not even passionate about a subject, what gives you the authority to critique it and write books? He's basically comparing the word of God (infallible) to the human capacity for intellect and reason (very limited and fallible). It would be like me going onto a football field, putting a meter stick between two of the small white markers and complaining they didn't paint the field correctly. Wrong. I was just using a different standard of measurement.
Besides that, all of the arguments have been covered by others (the line of Mary vs Joseph, adopted sons, etc).
Should Christians know more about such "controversies"? Yes. Just because they don't doesn't change a thing about God's character or the fact that He always tells things like they are, rather than how we subjectively might want them to be.
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