Tuesday, 12 May 2009

  • QOTD: Are Altars Still Important Today?


    All throughout the Bible, altars have been mentioned and shown. Abraham laid Isaac upon an altar to be sacrificed to God, but then he supplied a ram for its place. Altars were used to burn incense and offerings. I know many churches have gotten rid of altars. Some have admitted that they do not feel a need for them.

    Are altars are still important today?

Comments (35)

  • ChrisRusso@xanga

    Altars are places of sacrifice.  The ultimate sacrifice was provided for us in the person of Christ.

    If a church prefers, it can continue to have an altar as the location for the Communion elements, which are the symbol/archetype/substance of Christ's sacrifice.  If it chooses not to, however, that's not a big deal--for a Christian, our altar is the cross.

  • Ancient_Scribe@xanga

    The altar to me is the manger, the table of the Last Supper, the Pillar of Christ's scourging, Golgotha, the empty tomb, the table where they recognized him in the breaking of the bread.


    I believe the altar is absolutely important.

  • StepHyKu2517___v3v@xanga

    I don't think Altars are still important today ...

  • Pensamientos

    Yes. Very important.

  • TalithaKum88@xanga

    Of course they're important!

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @ChrisRusso@xanga - "Altars are places of sacrifice."

    Exactly. Which is why, if you are going to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass, you must have an altar. And if you have an altar, you must have priests, incense, liturgy, &c., &c.

    If you have no priests, no Mass, no liturgy, yeah the altar is a pointless waste of time. Consistent Protestants always reject the necessity of the altar, because they have no priests and no Sacrifice.

    "for a Christian, our altar is the cross."

    Equally true - and also true for Catholics as well. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that which occurred on Calvary. The local altar is just an extension of the Altar of the Cross.

  • jmallory@xanga

    It really depends on how you look at it. They aren't a necessity. And if they become a necessity, it is bad, seeing as how we already have the ultimate sacrifice made to us. But the real alter is in our hearts. That is where we make the necessary sacrifices to follow God better.

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - "And if they become a necessity, it is bad, seeing as how we already have the ultimate sacrifice made to us."

    The ultimate sacrifice was indeed made already, but it is made present for us only at the Mass. Hence the altar in Catholic churches. Just because Jesus died on the Cross does not automatically make the graces from Calvary immediately available to every person. It is through the Mass (and the other Sacraments) that these graces are bestowed upon Christians.

    At the Mass, we do not sacrifice Jesus once again. Rather, we re-present, i.e. present again, the same sacrifice that occurred on Calvary.

  • Pashe@xanga

    Alters are extremely important whether that be my zafu meditation cushion or the mini alter I have in my heart. They are extremely important because only by giving can one receive.

    p

  • HLPU@xanga

    Important?  I'd say 'yes.'  Absolutely essential?  Well, that's a different question.  Liturgical seasons and colors are important.  The cycle of readings is important.  Many things in a church are important.  To dismiss them for no or little reason is foolish.  They teach us, they remind us, they serve a purpose for us. 

  • Bridget41040@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - "Just because Jesus died on the Cross does not automatically make the graces from Calvary immediately available to every person."


    Really, do you have scripture for that?

  • jmallory@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - I don't know about that. Can you find any New Testament support for an alter? It is good for symbolism, but that is about it.

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @Bridget41040@xanga - "Really, do you have scripture for that?"

    The Sacraments are the ways by which God dispenses His grace to His people. Because of the sacrifice of Calvary, our sins are forgiven, yet the Bible clearly teaches that our sins are initially forgiven at Baptism (Acts II:xxxviii). Also, St. John VI:xiv is quite clear that it is through the Eucharist that we receive new life, and that we cannot obtain salvation without that Sacrament. Finally, forgiveness of sins, yet another benefit of the Cross, cannot occur without Confession according to I John I:ix. So whilst there is no such magical verse, the New Testament is quite clear that the Sacraments are how we receive the graces of Calvary.

    @jmallory@xanga - "I don't know about that. Can you find any New Testament support for an alter? It is good for symbolism, but that is about it."

    The New Testament nowhere teaches that we are in no need of an altar or priesthood - only that the nature of such things has changed since the death of Jesus Christ. St. Paul clearly teaches that those who work in the holy places and that "serve of the altar, partake of the altar." [I Corinthians IX:xiii]

    In addition to that, the numerous references to altars in the Apocalypse show that they are indeed quite a large part of Christianity. We do not kill animals any more, yet we still are in need of an altar where the Sacrifice of Calvary is made present for us so that we may eat of the Sacrificial Lamb, just as He said we would have to do in order to obtain eternal life.

  • jmallory@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - But it is still symbolic, not literal. As I've said, the real altar is our hearts... not a table for sacraments. It is not necessary for our salvation, therefore, nice to have for remembrance... but not necessarily important.

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - "As I've said, the real altar is our hearts... not a table for sacraments."

    Can you please provide a Scriptural reference for that?

    "It is not necessary for our salvation, therefore, nice to have for remembrance... but not necessarily important."

    I think this statement is highly at odds with St. John VI:

    Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

  • jmallory@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - We are not talking about whether or not communion is necessary for salvation. That is a whole different topic. But back on track, it is the the physical altar that is not important to our salvation. The only physical altar we need is the altar upon which Christ was sacrificed... and today, it remains spiritual... and we have it in our hearts. Sacrificing is a matter of the heart now. Romans 12:1-2 tells us to offer our bodies as living sacrifices- meaning dying to our flesh and living for God's spirit. Psalms 51:17 says that the sacrifices of Gd are a broken spirit and a contrite heart. No table is needed for that. Just our heart. Again, it is symbolic. 

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - "We are not talking about whether or not communion is necessary for salvation."

    How can you have the body and blood of Christ without an altar on which a priest can consecrate it?

  • eskeemo_kisses@xanga

    I think I forgot to add a part to the question. I find that altars are extremely important. It is a place where I can [besides in my prayer closet] lay down my burdens at Jesus' feet. If it weren't for the altars, I'd be lost. Yes, God did give His only begotten son, but I have to do my part. I have to be willing to sacrifice who I am, crucify my flesh, my all to Jesus...daily.

  • jmallory@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - A priest does not have to consecrate the bread and wine... even on an altar. Communion was never meant to be practiced as a sacred ritual. It was designed to be a daily feast. That is how the early church practiced it, anyway. In the first and second centuries, it was called the "love feast". By the end of the second century, it had stopped as a meal. Soon, the feast was stopped altogether (towards the fourth century). Then it just became the bread and the cup (now known as the Eucharist). This is about the time it became known as an offering or a sacrifice (why they placed it on the altar).
    Now because it has turned from a joyous festivity to a sacred ritual, it required a "holy man" to administer it. This is why the priest now "consecrates" the bread and wine. It was believed that the priest had the power to call God down from heaven to actually put Him in the bread and wine with the magical latin words, "hoc est corpus meum" (also where we get the words, "hocus pocus" from...  God's body is then confined to a tiny wafer and a thimble of wine instead of being represented by a feast of bread and wine.
    The priest doesn't need to consecrate the bread and wine... that is the result of not understanding the history behind the lords supper.

  • BIGPHILLY82@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - 
    You should read what the early Church Fathers have to say about this. But of course, I listen to certain people from history who support my view and you listen to certain people from history who support your view.

  • pillowpixies@xanga

    To be honest, I don't know. I've never thought of it, nor have I paid attention to altars that much in the first place. All I can say is.. if they were important before, why not now? Likewise in reverse. 

  • jmallory@xanga

    @BIGPHILLY82@xanga - Isn't it funny how that works? One can always find something to back up his opinion, whether he is right or wrong. But a lot of this is from the early church fathers. An example is, that the bread and wine separated began to separate from the feast and become more ritualized during Tertullian's age. Another one is Irenaeus was one of the firsts to consider the Eucharist an actual sacrifice or offering. 

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - It's always kind of funny when a person whose religion was invented a few generations ago tells a Catholic that he misunderstands some aspect of Church history.

    It is pointless even to try to respond to this topic without writing a post that is twelve pages long. And I don't have time for that. Long story short - nobody believed what you believe about the Sacraments until fairly recently. And amongst all Christians, it is the smallest minority of beliefs.

    Not that that proves that you're wrong - but it's a little much to claim that every Christian who ever lived for two millennia "misunderstood" Jesus, whose words were only to be discovered by some tiny American sect within the last two hundred years.

  • jmallory@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - But that isn't how it is. If you study church history, you will know exactly what I am talking about...

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @jmallory@xanga - I have read more Church history than you have, I promise you.

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