by mr palmJames Corbett, a history teacher at Capistrano Valley High School in Mission Viejo, CA, has been found guilty of violating the First Amendment for a comment against Creationism.
In 2007, Corbett called Creationism "religious, superstitious nonsense" in his Advanced Placement European History class. This didn't sit well with student Chard Farnan, who brought a lawsuit against Corbett for promoting hostility against Christians in class.
Corbett made the "superstitious nonsense" remark during a class discussion about a former teacher at the school who sued the school district, challenging its requirement to teach evolution.
The lawsuit attributed over 20 disparaging comments to Corbett, including:
"Conservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies – that's interfering with God's work."
"When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want."
In an earlier decision, the court dismissed 18 of the 20 statements as not referring to religion or being appropriate for a lecture setting. Farnan's lawsuit asked for damages and lawyer fees, which will be determined later (
Orange County Register article).
Have you ever perceived statements hostile to your religious beliefs in school?
Comments (112)
Statements by public school teachers that either advocate religion or denigrate it are inappropriate.
One objective of education is to teach students how to think, not what to think.
yes. i had a teacher who started to make fun of the pentecostals who used to evangelize in his neighborhood in dominican republic. i ran out of the classroom and gave him the silent treatment for a week.
It's not terrible- but there is some of it, I suppose.
No... but I didn't really have any religious beliefs when I was in school.
"Corbett made the "superstitious nonsense" remark during a class discussion about a former teacher at the school who sued the school district, challenging its requirement to teach evolution."
Sounds like he was getting involved in politics when he should have been teaching European history. I don't really see how his comments were relevant to the subject matter at hand.
That teacher needs a kick in the ass. Forcing atheism on students is just as wrong as forcing religion on them.
@LadyLibellule@xanga - Yeah, he sounds like somebody who should be fired just for teaching poorly, regardless of what irrelevant subject he goes off on.
It really bothers me how people treat the Creationism vs. Evolution debate as Good vs. Evil or Christians vs. Atheists. I think it perpetuates an "us and them" mentality more than anything else, plus people make it seem like that's all that Christianity is about, and to teach evolution in a SCIENCE classroom is the same as persecution of the faith. Well, it's not. Evolution is about science, creationism is about faith. If you don't want your kids to learn about evolution, send them to private school. Why is this so hard to understand?
@sarahzthoughts@xanga - It's not hard to understand. Its hard to accept.
Many Christians are opposed to it. That much is obvious. Going to a different school would be an ideal fix to the problem, however ideal solutions rarely work outside of an ideal world.
The problem with that idea, is that private schools cost money. Many people, especially now, don't have that much. I don't know where you're posting from, but at least in the US everyone pays school taxes. So in order to send a kid to private school you have to be able to pay for that, and the public school education the kid isn't even getting.
Besides that, the public schools are just that, public. Parents and taxpayers have a right to be involved in what their children are learning, and you can't expect that to go smoothly and without disagreement anywhere.
cry ...
@John_of_the_bloomdocks@xanga - Well the fact that theories are being taught as fact is another matter altogether, that's not a problem that applies just to evolution. The purpose of education is to learn, but it's up to you whether you choose to believe the things you are taught. Education itself is not a sin.
As for the private school issue...I guess it all boils down to priorities. If your child's education in religious matters over secular ones is of utmost importance then maybe it's worth sacrificing some vacations for them to be able to get that education. But for people who really can't afford anything other than public school, they need to understand that the whole world is full of people that may try to sway you from your faith. Consider it a preparatory step towards facing reality. I think it was Aristotle who said something to the effect of "It takes a strong person to entertain an idea without accepting it as fact" or something like that.
although i do agree with him about creationism, i think he was wrong to say those statements in a public classroom. bad decision, tsk tsk.
In some form or another I have had words spoken to me that attack my views but it is never surprising nor should it be. People are allowed to have opinions and express them. Teachers are obligated to teach the material they are allowed. A good teacher will submit to the rules set out before them and teach only the curriculum given to them. A good human will do what is right no matter the rules.
If a teacher called my views "superstitious nonsense" I'd be okay with it. It's not a big deal. I can read books, talk to people and form my own opinion. We all can. Though, teachers are responsible for molding the views of the adolescent and should be fair about it as much as is possible.
There's no reason to get bent out of shape over a teacher claiming creationism is superstitious nonsense just like there is no reason to get bent out of shape if a pastor calls evolution a viable possibility.
@sarahzthoughts@xanga - Well that isn't exactly fair to poor people now is it? They pay the same share of taxes as everyone else but have no say in what their children learn?
I agree with Aristotle, however I can hardly imagine that would extend to a child who has yet to form any solid idea's or beliefs. Children base their beliefs on what they see and hear. I think Parents have a right to choose what kind of education they pay for. Forcing them to pay for something they do not believe in is certainly not what the Founding Father's had in mind for America.
I think the schools should be required to teach it as a theory. While I agree there isn't much room in a science class for religion, I still think it is wrong for them to teach unproven idea's as if they are facts.
In less words, Evolution should be taught as a theory, but only as a theory.
Anyway that teacher attacking Creationism in the classroom certainly went out of line, teaching something a religious group disagrees with is Ok. But attacking religion in a public school is entirely different and in no way legal.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - "There's no reason to get bent out of shape over a teacher claiming creationism is superstitious nonsense"
You mean other than the First Amendment?
@John_of_the_bloomdocks@xanga - Well that isn't exactly fair to poor people now is it? They pay the same share of taxes as everyone else but have no say in what their children learn?
I know it's not fair. But it's the way it is.
I agree with Aristotle, however I can hardly imagine that would extend to a child who has yet to form any solid idea's or beliefs.
Well as far as evolution goes, that would be taught in either middle or high school, when kids are more intellectually mature to understand it.
I think the schools should be required to teach it as a theory. While I agree there isn't much room in a science class for religion, I still think it is wrong for them to teach unproven idea's as if they are facts.
I agree, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught.
Wow, I'd be pissed off if he was my teacher.
Teachers should be objective. He was basically condemning Christianity ... :/
@sarahzthoughts@xanga - I didn't say it shouldn't be taught. Actually the Pope said Catholics can accept it as long as they believe God guided the process, but that's going off topic. As I said before, Evolution should be taught as a theory, but only as a theory.
@John_of_the_bloomdocks@xanga - If you're going to stand by the Constitution of the United States of America and always adhere to all of it then you have to stand by it for everyone in the United States. If you get to speak freely then so does he. He's not acting as the government. Even if he was, that statement does not make a law respecting an establishment or prohibiting the free exercise of a religion. That statement is simply religious/social commentary made by a person who is allowed to speak freely.
So if you stand by the Constitution then you have even less reason to get bent out of shape. Though, you do have more reason to speak against it.
I had a professor insult intelligent design last week, which I believe in (based on his reasoning of what it is and why only stupid people believe in it). Was I offended? Yes, especially since he had just asked two days prior if my religious beliefs were being respected. I also recognize that he had the right to make that comment. As an education major, I feel that although teachers have the right to free speech, they should be more cautious about what they say in front of students.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - Actually you're wrong. He was representing a public school provided by the government. He may not speak for the Government, but he works for them and he is subject to the laws that govern what the government can and cannot say.
It is constitutionally illegal for him to use the authority of a teacher, however small that is, to insult any students beliefs. And if you won't hear that from me, ask the Judge who found him guilty of violating the First amendment.
@John_of_the_bloomdocks@xanga - Well, if we're going to make stretches then everyone who interacts with the government represents them. For instance, doctors, teachers, volunteers for non-profit organizations, anyone ever a part of the military, and of course Kevin Bacon because he's related somehow within 6 degrees.
If you ask that professor who he was representing with that comment I can assure you he would never say the government. He probably wouldn't even say the school that employed him. More than likely he would say it is his own opinion. Now I understand that he represents the school employing him but any person with common sense can acknowledge an opinion when it is spoken. Any person of logic can distinguish a government issued statement from a single persons voice.
I don't see how it's that big of a deal. If his students can read, communicate with other human beings, or do their own research then why does it matter if a professor calls religious myth "superstitious nonsense?" Those students don't have to accept (and probably don't accept) everything the professor says.
If someone wants to take away a man's career because he voiced an
opinion on the scientific forming of the world then they are probably
the person who should be deemed a threat to others.
I don't understand the courts sometimes.... So he's found guilty of violating the first amendment "there shall be no establishment of religion" by exercising a different first amendment right "freedom of speech"
Maybe he should have been disciplined, sure, but I certainly don't think making some liberal comments about religion being superstitions constitute government establishing religion (because *gasp!* the Bill of Rights is not actually a list of our rights, it's a list of limits on government.)
bah
And, another thing. Why do people insist on teaching Creationism in school? Isn't that what sunday school is for? That's where I learned it..... maybe they should have a segment that teaches how creationism and evolution can work together, but really... teach creationism?
Sorry..... extremists on either end bug the crap out of me.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - You clearly do not understand how the American Government works. Luckily the Judge in his case did.
"If you ask that professor who he was
representing with that comment I can assure you he would never say the
government. He probably wouldn't even say the school that employed him.
More than likely he would say it is his own opinion. Now I understand
that he represents the school employing him but any person with common
sense can acknowledge an opinion when it is spoken. Any person of logic
can distinguish a government issued statement from a single persons
voice."
Obviously. But it was his duty to represent the School and the Government, and he blew it. The School can't teach a text that condemns any religion, and he cannot teach his own opinion if it does. He can teach it anywhere else, but while he's teaching in the classroom he is not speaking for just himself. Clearly he gave his own ideas, but he had no right to do so in that instance.
"Well, if we're going to make stretches then
everyone who interacts with the government represents them. For
instance, doctors, teachers, volunteers for non-profit organizations,
anyone ever a part of the military, and of course Kevin Bacon because
he's related somehow within 6 degrees."
Your sarcasm is really poor here. Doctors are not representatives of the Government, it regulates them, but they do not speak for it in any way. Non profits are sometimes government funded, and if so they cannot use government money for the cause of a religion. They can still use their own funding. The Military is part of the government, and it certainly cannot force religion on anyone legally. However once retired from active duty they are no longer representing the government.
Even the Teacher in question can give his own opinion legally outside the classroom. But as long as he's being teaching he must follow every rule that applies to any branch of government, because that teaching is government funded.
@John_of_the_bloomdocks@xanga - But non-profit volunteers can't give their opinion against any religious thought according to this judge if they are at the office or passing out flyers? After all, they represent the government just as much as any teacher in a public school. Same goes for military. Any commentary on religion while active in the military must be prohibited.
All I'm getting at here is that whether this is fair or not according to the constitution of the United States doesn't matter since it goes against common sense. The issue should not be so much over whether or not a teacher spoke his opinion in his classroom as much as how ridiculous it is that people want to ruin his career based off a small comment.
It's just not that big of deal. It poses no threat to anyone. Anyone looking for a fight should have their dispute dismissed because they're complaint is more than likely from a hyper-sensitive or spiteful position (which this one seems to be). Whoever complained about this should have "Jerk" tattooed on their forehead.
Just sayin...
The teacher got what he deserved. He's there to teach, not tell people his opinion on topics that don't even pertain to the subject at hand. People such as him get on my nerves. I've never been in a class where a teacher done that, no. I don't think his career should be ended for it, however.