Wednesday, 29 April 2009
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Was Jesus Perfect?
My friend Jason wrote a blog entry yesterday called, Jesus Wasn’t Perfect. He took some heat for it.He wrote because he was feeling the pressure to perform to perfection in various areas of his life – in his job, with his family, as a Christian, etc. He went on to explain that he took some comfort in his disciple-making failures when he realized that Jesus’ track record wasn’t spotless in this area either. When you consider the Disciples’ actions - bickering, infighting and ultimately betrayal, Jesus’ team leading skills would have got him kicked off Donald Trump’s Celebrity Apprentice the first week he was appointed project manager.
Jason had an important disclaimer – Jesus was flawless when it comes to sin- he never was in disobedience to the Father – but this didn’t keep the comments from cascading in on Jason’s blog and Facebook wall. There was discussion, disagreement, and several verses bantered back and forth to prove various points.
Matthew 5:48 was quoted in three different versions, including KJV, which makes it even more authoritative- “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Hebrews 5:8 makes it sound like Jesus was made perfect through suffering (meaning he wasn’t before that?), and 2 Corinthians 13:11 says we should aim for perfection. The same verse also says, “be of one mind, live in peace.” God knows it’s pretty hard to live in unity and peace when we are driven by perfection performance. Aiming for, and being driven by perfection, are apparently vastly different. “Perfection?” Inigo Montoya might say, “I do not think it means what you think it means...”
Consider the following:- Jesus’ stunt at the temple would have gotten most kids at 12 years of age both a grounding and a spanking. He may have been about his father’s business but it was a pretty inconsiderate move where his family was concerned.
- Jesus didn’t know who touched him when the unclean woman healed herself by fondling his tunic.
- Jesus lost an argument to a Gentile woman about who was worthy of Jesus’ time and blessing.
- Jesus slept through a storm on the boat. (Sure the disciples marveled when he calmed the wind and the waves. They also marveled why he hadn’t done it earlier.)
- In the Old Testament Jesus lost a wrestling tournament with Jacob, who was the weaker of the twins.
- Jesus face never would have graced People’s Most Beautiful edition in 33AD.
I think that is what Jason was getting at. Then again he could be wrong; God knows he isn't perfect.
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- From: ChadEstes
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Comments (40)
I don't see how any of those points have anything to do with "perfection." Jesus was perfect because he was tempted in everyway just like us yet he was without sin.
it has nothing to do with sleeping through a storm, or not knowing who touched your garment. that is kinda ridiculous.
ok that is ludicrous.
WOW. Sometimes these posts simply amaze me, lol!
Hmmm . . . interesting points, but you should probably still state whether or not you hold to the doctrine of Jesus's moral perfection. If you don't, you've kind of still got some unatoned sins on your hands, which could be a problem. It seems like you hold to that, save for the first bullet point, which seems to imply that Jesus did something wrong? Other than that, Jesus was human, and may have even tripped and fallen down, or been sick . . . and in that sense he would have not lived a 'perfect' life.
wow...all those examples are mis-identifications of the situation...i dont even feel like setting the record straight that was so bad...
It is human to sin, and since Jesus never sinned, he never was human.
@Queer - I have to disagree, I think it is "human" to feel, think, etc. it is the fallen nature that makes us sin. not human nature
The world's term and idea of perfection is much different than that of the Bible's. The Bible also tells us to not be of the world.
@squanto_07@xanga - agree w/ you...but I'll make an attempt...
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As for the examples.
1. Our obedience to God trumps family loyalties. Period. Everytime. Follow Me...Let the dead bury the dead. Whoever loves mother or father or ... more than Me is not worthy of Me.
2. Jesus knew who touched Him but He wanted to have the woman come out and show herself. (Similar to the encounter in the garden when God asked Adam, "Where are you?")
3. The encounter w/ the Gentile woman is a picture of true faith. God tests us to see if our faith is genuine. I know some people have problems w/ God doing that, but how do we know our faith is genuine if it's never tested?
4. Jesus slept on the boat. Similar to # 3. Plus God's timing is perfect in all things.
5. Jesus lost the wrestling match w/ Jacob. Similar to # 3. How much do we want God's blessing? Do we really care? Jacob had gotten the blessing initially by trickery, here He was getting it by passionate faith; he had finally come to see he needed God and not to rely on himself.
6. Jesus' face might not have been on a magazine...God often uses the foolish, base and weak things of the world to accomplish His purposes. It doesn't take a pretty boy to suffer and die for our sins. It takes the perfectly submissive Son of God who had a perfect heart of obedience and love for His Father. That is what is truly beautiful in the eyes of God. God always looks at the heart not the outward appearance.
To the OP: Re: God's command to be perfect as He is perfect...Only as we take on Jesus' yoke and begin to walk in His Spirit, will we begin to fulfill the command to be perfect. Christ's imparted righteousness, His Holy Spirit dwells in us to make us, um, Holy...
There are some struggles we have as we strive to be holy/perfect:
We try to do it in our own strength and will fail miserably. It's like we're putting ourselves back under the law; we forget the resurrection power available to us through the Holy Spirit; we don't live like the new creations God has made us.
We see how holy God is and say it's impossible for us. Our first reaction is to despair. But then we need to let that despair drive us to the cross...to see that it's impossible w/ us, possible w/ Him.
His commandments are not burdensome...It is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; We are to work out what He is working in us. (I John 5:3; Phil. 2:12-13).
@StrokeofThought@xanga - Yes, I do hold to the doctrine of Jesus's moral perfection. Thanks for the opportunity to set that straight.
@naphtali_deer@xanga - You did a great job playing defense there. Thanks for helping my point.
Limitations are not imperfections for in Jesus we see God crammed into a human being. So in Jesus we see God submitting to the limitations of the flesh. Jesus did this perfectly.
In Scripture we see Jesus develop as any human being does. This is not the imperfection of God, it is the requirement of being human.
When you consider the Disciples’ actions - bickering, infighting and ultimately betrayal, Jesus’ team leading skills would have got him kicked off Donald Trump’s Celebrity Apprentice the first week he was appointed project manager.
This is not Jesus being imperfect. This is Jesus perfectly transforming disciples into the evangelists and martyrs that they would one day become. This is another example of human development. And Jesus the teacher performed superbly, with patience, allowing for the freedom and dignity of his disciples.
Jesus was the perfect man. And as his Father proudly proclaimed, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased (Luke 3:22; Matt 3:17)."
Is this going somewhere? Because I'm not really seeing the significance of, say, sleeping during a thunderstorm. Does your friend feel that he should wake up if it's raining really hard? Does he feel guilty for not waking up during rain?
Q: Was Jesus perfect?
A: Yes. Next question, please.
Jesus Perfect? Maybe ....
i don't think he was. but then again, i'm not Christian. i don't believe a person has to be flawless in order to be important. a flawed human being can sacrifice his life just as easily and meaningfully as a perfect one. actually... i'd appreciate it more.
i do like that you choose to look at Scripture from an objective stance, rather than a faith-based one. nothing is more annoying than Christians who use the interpretation methods of the ancients.
Jesus was without sin--if he wasn't then Scripture lies and we best start following the law cause the Jews are right and we have no Messiah.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he had all of the attributes of God. He probably wasn't omniscient and he certainly wasn't omnipresent. I believe that when Christ did know what was going to happen in the future he was being informed by the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Yikes.
This probably would have been helped by a more specific definition of perfect and what, exactly, perfection entails and doesn't entail. (Perhaps a term like Plantinga's "maximal excellence"?) That would remove a lot of the confusion that is otherwise unavoidable.
If asked to phrase it in my own way, I'd say, "Complete obedience to God's will and the absence of moral failings are (as demonstrated in the Incarnation) still compatible with human limitations such as tiredness, temptation, physical suffering, and eventual death. As an artist works within the specific yet limited nature of a medium such as marble or oil paints to express himself, so God is able to completely and perfectly express Himself through the physical form of Jesus although human nature has these limitations that the divine nature lacks." Not sure if that's quite what you were getting at, but that's all I've got.
Think of it this way:
What is the universal term for perfect? Is there such a term? No. Do you know why? Because it's something called "personal opinion." Basically, one thing that seems perfect to you doesn't mean it's perfect to everyone else. People have the free will to pick and choose what they prefer.
Does it makes us less human? No, it doesn't. In fact, that's what makes us human. Unlike animals, we have self awareness on what we want. So, honestly, Jesus wasn't perfect. But being moral, he probably was the most moral of everyone else.
Nobody's perfect.
Nope.
@Queer -
Hi there!
This is false logic and inaccurate.
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus was fully human - this sounds like the heresy of Docetism, which held the view that Jesus was God, but not human. Docetists essentially taught that Jesus only appeared to be human, but He in fact was not. Docetism contradicts many Scriptures, with John 1:14 and 1 John 4:1-3 being the most clear refutations of Docetism. Jesus’ humanity is one of the first tests of orthodoxy (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Jesus was born (Luke 2:7). He grew (Luke 2:40, 52). He grew tired (John 4:6) and got thirsty (John 19:28). He got hungry (Matthew 4:2) and was physically weak (Matthew 4:11; Luke 23:26). He died (Luke 23:46). And he had a real human body after his resurrection (Luke 24:39; John 20:20, 27).
Throughout the Gospels, Jesus clearly displays human emotions. When Jesus heard the centurion’s words of faith, “he marvelled” (Matthew 8:10). He says in Matthew 26:38 that his “soul is very sorrowful, even to death.” In John 11:33-35, Jesus is “deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled” and even weeps. John 12:27 says, “Now is my soul troubled,” and in John 13:21, he is “troubled in his spirit.” The author to the Hebrews writes that “Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears” (Hebrews 5:7) John Calvin memorably summed it up: “Christ has put on our feelings along with our flesh.”
Jesus also has a human mind. Two key texts make this undeniable:
Luke 2:52: “Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.”
Mark 13:32: “Concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Jesus not only has a divine will but also a human will. Two wills—one divine and one human. Two key texts mention his human will:
John 6:38: “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
Matthew 26:39: “Not as I will, but as you will.”
So, as I understand it - Jesus was fully human...and deity.
thanks,
Thad
to me Jesus is perfect he died for me and saved me and mankind
@naphtali_deer@xanga - well done
Jesus was born under the law so that he could fulfill the law. he lived as we did and did not sin neither was guile found in him. Jesus was is and will always be perfect if he was not perfect he could never have paid for our sins because he would have to paid for his own sins first. The wages of sin are death, thus if Jesus had sinned he would not have been able to die for us, but rather would have had to pay for sinning just like we have to. but he did not sin so he paid the price for us and now if we are willing we can become children of God and escape hell.@no1charmerlondon@xanga - @Thad - @RazorBladeParade@xanga - @sarah_withanH@xanga - @stephyju2517@xanga - @ChadEstes - @naphtali_deer@xanga -
@squanto_07@xanga - I still don't agree that through what you said he's perfect. Being human makes him imperfect. But I'm not religious, so I don't actually believe he actually died for anyone, that's just my belief. Oh well?
@forever_musing@xanga - I totally agree with you.
Jesus was a man and as such was human. He felt love and sadness and even doubt and fear, These are all human emotions. However Jesus unlike many of us "humans" was also humane. Which is something we all need to remember.Sometimes, we get so caught up in being righteous, that we miss Jesus's commandment to "Love one another, As I have loved you", and to remember, we all are sinners, even though we try to walk in the light. Was Jesus perfect? No, A perfect person wouldn't have let emotion cloud their judgement, but if he had been perfect, he wouldn't have been able to understand and love us despite our weaknesses. But even with his own imperfections, he never fell to temptation and remained pure. So many times, he showed his human side, anger when he turned over the money changers tables in the temple, fear in the Garden of Gethsemane, and doubt when he asked,"Father, Why has thou forsaken me?" Let's see, anger, fear, doubt, aren't these all imperfect emotions? human emotions? But he never gave in, he never sinned. and what He did for us, is love and that is a perfect emotion.