Wednesday, 22 April 2009
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Is It Spiritually Beneficial to Debate Evolution?
by Hoa
Evolution has always been, in my eyes, a very interesting subject. However, it's not a subject I spend too much time on. I go on different Christian websites and once in while I come cross a debate about evolution. Now keep in mind that these are not debates between creationists and evolutionists, but between Christians! They debate extensively and aggressively. As I read more and more of the debates, I can't help but become aggravated myself! I just want them to stop. I don't see the point in Christians debating about evolution. Shouldn't our focus be on Jesus – on God? Some interpret Genesis 1-2 as literal and some as metaphorical. Can debating about evolution bring us closer to God?
So you believe God created evolution? Good for you, now go and love. So you believe God created the world just as it is in Genesis? Good for you too! Now go and love. Maybe I'm just seeing this at one angle, but I really don't see any benefit in it.
When Christians debate about evolution, is it spiritually beneficial at all?
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Comments (95)
I don't believe so. I am a supporter of evolution mostly because it makes much more sense to me. I have read the book of Genesis and it just seems too . . . . fairytale-ish to me (no offense). How God say that there should be this and then it appears . . . well, doesn't make any sense. I've been in too many debates between evolutionists and creationists, so I would leave it at that.
Is it spiritually edifying to start a post about "Has God said?"
Debating is good. It is a way of pursuing the truth with the intellect that makes us human.
Just accepting things without thinking about them is dangerous. In a debate we get access to all sorts of information and philosophies.
For those people who are born harmonizers who detest conflict a good book is recommended.
Yes, this issue is a stumbling block to many when it comes to faith. The historical paradigm by which evolutionary materialism functions provides a positive alternative to the Biblical narrative and makes belief in the supernatural irrelevant.
Cultural acceptance of evolution has led to a privatization of one's belief in the supernatural. Sure, it's okay to believe in God, but just don't bring it into your job if you're a scientist, a teacher, a historian, an anthropologist, a psychologist, an artist, etc.
On the flipside, cultural acceptance of evolution leads to a fragmentation of thought in the Christian. You can go to church on Sundays, but check your brain at the door. None of the stuff in that silly book could be actual history.
As to those who actually believe that God created evolution, I would love to hear their explanation of salvation. Because if Adam and Eve evolved from simpler organisms, that means that death, disease, predation, genetic aberration, and suffering all came about before sin-- thus, by God's hand alone.
I think God wants us to question.
However, I'm not sure about debate amongst one another. I think having a debate is one thing though, and arguing another. As long as you are still being cordial with eachother, and still glorifying God and making it more of a discussion rather than an argument? *shrugs*
@Mister_Potpourri@xanga - Generally when I hear people say "God created evolution", they aren't talking about evolution as in from the VERY BEGINNING (little tiny amoebas and then into people). Usually, they are talking about evolving, natural selection (micro-evolution), that kind of thing. At least that's what the majority of those folks I've come across have been anyway...
Gosh, do ya'll ever have anything nice to say about Christians, or any denomination for that matter?
@ashleyannaka@xanga - If that's all we're talking about, then, there's absolutely no controversy. But I'm talking theistic evolutionists who really do believe in bacteria slowly becoming the entire diversity of life, as the original post implied.
The issue of origins is of course important spiritually! In Christianity, the belief that God created humanity in his own image is the basis on which we build our morality and ethics on. We're not simply just another animal on the face of the planet. For example, it is wrong to murder simply because doing so is taking away the life which the Creator God gave, and destroying an image of God... both of which is not only lawfully wrong but also that we do not have the right to take life as mere creatures (life belongs to God the Creator and is given to us as a gift).
Conversely, evolution offers a naturalistic theory of origins, without the input of a higher being. The danger here is that there is really no moral and ethical obligations at all, since we're all animals, and survival of the fittest is the way to go. Under evolution, one can go around killing others at will to ensure ones survival in the wild wild west. You get psychopaths who shoot up campuses because they're simply following the rules of survival of the fittest. You get Hitlers, Nazis and KKKs who believe that their "race" is the fittest and others are inferior, worthy of extermination.
Then of course, there are the "fence sitters" like "God created using evolution" or "Evolution with an intelligent designer", but won't go into there or this comment would get too long...
Yes, it does matter whether or not one beliefs in creationism or evolution, because at the heart of it, lies the basis of our identity (image of God, loved vs by-product of primordial soup and descendant of apes) and our morality (acountability to Creator vs barbaric survival of the fittest).
In terms of the evidences, there seems to be evidence supporting both sides of the camp. Most of it stems from the different interpretations of the same data. What I can say is that historical science is not as rigorous as analytical science. Since the past is unobservable, no one can be entirely sure of what happened in the past based on present observations. I guess we'll just have to wait until our death beds or until the end of the world to see who's right and who's wrong, as far as evidences go.
As important as they are, I strongly believe that intellectual debates cannot win a person over. As Christians, our primary mandate is to evangelise; to simply tell the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. People get saved through love and conviction of the Holy Spirit, not through intellectual debates (though there are rare cases).
So in answering the question in the subject heading...
No, it is probably not spiritually beneficial to discuss the topic when it comes to evangelism. Yes, it is spiritually beneficial to discuss the topic when it comes to apologetics and guard against apostasy within the church.
The public system only teaches evolution. Intelegent design when looked at with an open mind is dangerous to the proponets of evolution. It's war baby and don't get in their way.
Watch the movie, "Expelled". It's hillarious and interesting. That's if you can view it with an open mind. And I don't think athiests are able to have open minds.
The problem is if well qualified intelegent design proponets do not debate openly in our Universities, our young people will swallow insanely rediculous theory with absolutley no proof. We are led down the primrose path if we are afraid to ask questions.
Richard Dawkins, one of the leading athiests on evolution believes a viable theory is that aliens planted life on earth.
Why can't we just call God an alien? The idea of God is alien to most of us.
You shouldn't debate about anything. You might accidentally see something from another viewpoint and, as we all know, that will give Satan an opportunity to dig his claws in and steal your soul, and then you'll have to vomit pea soup and your head will spin around 360 degrees.
If you're interested in the subject, why shouldn't you talk about it? If you're not interested in it, nobody's forcing you to talk about it. It doesn't really matter if you believe evolution is real or not; that belief (or non-belief) won't make it true or untrue.
As for whether it's spiritually beneficial... I doubt it. You might as well argue over the merits of margarine versus butter. They both have their pros and cons, but neither is necessarily going to help you achieve enlightenment or get into heaven. (And if they are... that's some margarine!)
There are two sides for every important subject. I think your point is well-taken - there are some Christians (including myself) who can weary themselves out debating over evolution, design, God, etc.
I'd say there is a spiritual benefit to discussion. Debate, less so. Debating without end? None. That has the effect of draining your spirit entirely.
@JUSTAVAPORHERE@xanga - hahahah. Doesn't it seem like most posts about "Christians" are all condemnation?
I might not think the "style" in which some Christians will argue and debate over is appropriate, but I think it is worthy to debate such things. I would agree with @Mister_Potpourri@xanga - first statement. In my opinion, the belief in theistic evolution has been one of the foundational workings that has hurt Christianity.
Obviously there are parables in the Bible (primarily NT). Obviously there are some things that were meant to be taken figuratively... the problem with listing the Creation account of Genesis 1 (and the many other times it is referenced within scripture) is that, without sufficient reason, you are picking what you want to list as figurative- this opens the entire scripture up to being labeled as "figurative". You might laugh, yet how many Christians would say that a Muslim can find salvation? When Jesus said "I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the father but through me", he must have been speaking figuratively.
So, long opinion short, yes- this false theology needs to be fought because it does do damage, at least how I see it. I could be wrong, ultimately we'll all find out I guess. lol
@nyclegodesi24@xanga - Yes it does! I'd be more concerned about my judging Christians than a debate about evolution...but that's just my opinion.
Surely they can find one good thing to say about Christians, if nothing else they have good hair, at least I do, rofl, :)
The most frustrating thing about Christians debating evolution is that we tend to argue against outdated forms of proto-Darwinism that educated evolutionary theorists themselves disbelieve.
@JUSTAVAPORHERE@xanga - i think you should. People these days have been looking down upon us Christians. In music, in life, in our level of tolerance, in the quality of our posts. geez.
@SirNickDon@xanga - Also, the vast majority of people talking about evolution/creation are not scientists, and are most regurgitating arguments, so neither side can really offer a well thought out rebuttal. You have creationists and evolutionists both referring to a 'fossil record' when neither have ever studied a fossil.
Personally, as a pastor who studied philosophy at a large secular school, I try to stick to what I know. I'll discuss scripture and evolution, or talk about the differences in worldview between evolutionists and creationists - but I try to admit up front that I'm not a scientist and I won't pretend to be one. I think a bit more honesty about our limitations would make the discussion a lot more productive.
@SirNickDon@xanga - I whole-heartedly agree. Someone earlier commented on "survival of the fittest," which isn't a part of Darwin's theory of evolution anyway, but it gets thrown in there regardless. I am studying evolutionary biology right now, and it's difficult, trying to figure these things out. I'm really struggling with what to believe. At the same time, I get a bit fired up when layman talk about evolution and they don't understand it and twist the theory. I guess that's an issue I have to take up with myself however. All I know is, all truth is God's truth, and even if I don't know how everything fits together, He does. That comforts me when I fret over the fossilized remains of early hominids from millions of years ago.
debating is fun, pure and simple.
i talk about evolution and other topics all the time with my friends because i enjoy talking about it. whether or not i see any "fruit" from the interactions is not of consequence.
@Mister_Potpourri@xanga -
//"As to those who actually believe that God
beforecreated evolution, I would love to hear their explanation of
salvation. Because if Adam and Eve evolved from simpler organisms,
that means that death, disease, predation, genetic aberration, and
suffering all came about
sin-- thus, by God's hand alone."//
You don't understand the concept of allegories real well do you? The beginning of self-consciousness could be viewed as the beginning of morality in man (as well as then the realization of our own imperfection).
C.S. Lewis provides a supposed possible interpretation in The Problem of Pain.
In either case, there against plenty of theological questions that are left unanswered explicitly by scriptures. To try and prevent a few more from raising up so one can hold on to beliefs that are directly contradicted by what we know of the world around us seems unwise.
What's wrong with looking for the truth of the matter?
Religions should support their followers' curiosity with things that don't mesh with their teachings. Unless of course, you want your followers to be, to put it bluntly, less intelligent and behind in the times...
it is going to be a very exhausting and long debate among christians and non. The best thing to do is believe in GOD and do HIS WILL ...
I have "debated" with evolutionists on this issue. I have since stopped because it is pointless. Only God can change the hearts of the unbelieving, no amount of arguing will do that. Most evolutionists, at least the ones willing to debate with you, are very indoctrinated (I won't say "brainwashed", but to the many I've spoken to, there is no possibility of a God creating things at all, as if their minds are totally closed, burnt in, 100% convinced, no matter what you say), and if you aren't up to date on whatever you're going to debate about, they WILL slay you.
On the other hand, it is VERY VERY VERY VERY important for Christians to understand what they believe. SO many Christians are biblically illiterate, as well as scientifically illiterate. This is dangerous because it bolsters the evolutionist point of view that many Christians are just "blind followers of an outdated system", and it weakens the mind of the Christian being "blown every which way by every wind of doctrine".
"Study to show thyself approved." At least look it up on Wikipedia for goodness sake! There are tons of biblical sites as well. Just Google it!
@whataboutbahb@xanga - Romans 1:18-23 (18) For the wrath
of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
(19) because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
(20) For since the
creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and
divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what
has been made, so that they are without excuse.
(21) For even
though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but
they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was
darkened.
(22) Professing to be wise, they became fools,
(23) and exchanged
the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of
corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling
creatures.
It doesn't sound to me that the bible thinks that creation, Adam & Eve, the Fall, any of that, is allegorical at all. It would seem unwise, then, to dismiss God's Word for "futile speculation", exchanging the incorruptible God for Evolution (aka, form of corruptible man, birds, animals, crawling creatures), no?