Wednesday, 15 April 2009
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Our Relationship with Christ Has to Include Repentance
Are you waiting on something to happen before getting "really serious" about following Christ? You may find this passage interesting. I don't recall having ever heard it in a sermon, possibly because it would take some 'splaining on doctrine:About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple. “Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God. And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too.”
Then Jesus told this story: “A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, ‘I’ve waited three years, and there hasn’t been a single fig! Cut it down. It’s just taking up space in the garden.’
“The gardener answered, ‘Sir, give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I’ll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, then you can cut it down.’” - Luke 13:1-9 (NLT)This passage makes me think of a couple of others. First, Jesus, speaking to a crowd of people:
A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. - Matthew 7:18-19 (NLT)Jesus speaking to the church at Laodicea:
“I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!" - Revelation 3:15-16 (NLT)I'm not arguing that one can or can't lose his salvation. The point I'm trying to bring out here is that our relationship with Christ had better be marked by genuine repentance, and it should be making a visible difference in our lives (and by extension, in the lives of other people) -- our love for God should be producing good works.
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Comments (32)
This post is dead on. A person who does not produce fruit cannot expect salvation. Salvation by "faith alone" is one of the biggest lies in the world. Good for you.
St. John XV:i ff. also comes to mind: "I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
@MysteriumFidei@xanga - I believe in grace through faith plus nothing. The minute you add works then it is no longer faith or grace (unmerited favor) and you can't have salvation. All the repentance you need is in that word "believe".
@Sosthenes - "I believe in grace through faith plus nothing."
Faith without works is dead.
"The minute you add works then it is no longer faith or grace (unmerited favor) and you can't have salvation."
Huh? Just because you have works doesn't mean that you have merited anything. If what you said is true, then the only people who would be saved would be those who never did any works whatsoever. And well, Jesus had some nice words to say about that:
"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
"And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."
"He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned."
And if you still think that works aren't a part of salvation, this should apply (not that this will change your mind):
"Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
"Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
"And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."
Works means no grace? No, works are only possible with God's grace. Without works you cannot be saved.
@MysteriumFidei@xanga - I believe salvation is totally by grace, but if you are saved, you will have works. If you don't have works, it means you're not truly saved because all who are truly saved do good works. The works don't save you, but they come from God's Spirit working through you after you are saved. I believe this is what the original poster meant.
I realize we're not going to agree since you are Catholic and I am most definitely not, but I wanted to clarify.
@MysteriumFidei@xanga - Repentance isn't found in the gospel (1 Cor 15) and if anyone adds to the gospel (Galatians 1:8) they are to be accursed.
I believe Jesus who said:
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
When you read the James passage, James 2:18 says to "shew" him your faith and you are already setting yourself up according to Luke 16:15.
Do you still want to believe that "Faith without works is dead"?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
You don't know because your excuse can be "in thy name done many wonderful works" (Matthew 7:22).
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus will say to those who do wonderful works "depart from me".
@Sosthenes - "Repentance isn't found in the gospel"
Jesus disagrees with you: "And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel."
"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."
I'm not talking about hypocritical works of self-justification. I'm talking about obeying Christ's commands.
"Do you still want to believe that 'Faith without works is dead'?"
Yes, because that's what the Bible teaches. So much for the Bible.
"Jesus will say to those who do wonderful works 'depart from me'."
No, He will say that to those who did not do His will and claimed to have done wonderful works. You want to go to Heaven? You must do the will of the Father.
According to you, I guess Josef Stalin will be in Heaven and St. Peter won't. After all, all those good works that St. Peter did - he must have been told "depart from Me" by Jesus when he died and went to meet his Maker.
So, in order to get into Heaven, I guess I should do as many evil deeds as possible, right? I mean, I wouldn't want to do anything good and then end up in Hell for having tried to obey Jesus, would I? Should I cheat on my wife or kill one of my children? Which is the surest way to get to Heaven?
@Sosthenes - I'm sorry. I agree that salvation is by grace alone, but the Bible does say that faith without works is dead:
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The verses around this one also talk about the fact that those who claim to have faith but have no deeds are mistaken.
Excellent post.
Salvation is by faith alone.....
But we are judged by the fruits we produce.....
Topic is dead on accurate, finally some decent articles on revelife.
@Sosthenes - so, the minute you do something good as a Christian, you lose salvation? *confused*
Great post. Thank you.
A true relationship of submission to Christ's Lordship will include repentance, as the post says.
What surprises me about the discussion so far is how extremely positions are being proclaimed.
We are saved by faith, not through anything we do. Our faith is shown by our works. In fact, faith without works is dead. If we love Jesus, we will obey His teaching. If we abide in the Vine, we will bear fruit.
Our salvation comes from Jesus's work on the cross and nothing we could do ourselves, but the evidence of salvation is a changed life. This includes repentance and the renewal of our minds.
Salvation is by grace alone.
The Gift of Salvation is Jesus Christ. It is a relationship with God. When you are in a close relationship with God, you will naturally do good works, out of the abundance grace that he applies. without that grace, your works are like filthy rags. We don't do good works in our own ability, we never could. The only way to do pure and good, and right, and just, good works, is through the empowerment of the holy spirit. teaching us, guiding us, and doing it for us.
And also our willingness to allow him to do it. us surrendering to the spirit and partnering with him in his work.
all by grace - but a grace that will produce works
@Pickwick12@xanga -
"I'm sorry. I agree that salvation is by grace alone, but the Bible does say that faith without works is dead:"
It is okay if you disagree with me but I have a question. If a person had fruit then I assume their works wouldn't burn up. If a person's fruit burned up and then were saved by fire then it didn't have anything to do with our works, does it?
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
My other question to you is Luke 18; A righteous pharisee who does works and a publican who is a sinner and who knows he is spiritually poor. Who do you think Jesus called justified in Luke 18:14 and how does that square with being justified by works in James 2:14? I included a link to make it easy to turn there.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=18&v=13&t=KJV#13
@Sosthenes - I do not believe we are justified by our works. I said that above. I believe, though, that anyone who is saved will have works after they are saved because God's Spirit living in a person always produces good fruit. True, living faith always produces good works, as James said. The works don't save us, but we should expect them to be there after salvation.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
AV — freely 6, without a cause 1, in vain 1, for nought 1
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
My definition of salvation is grace (comes from Eph. 2:8-9) through faith plus nothing or "not of works".
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If you use works as an excuse to get into heaven then you are trusting in yourself and no longer fully on Jesus which sounds like a lack of faith but Romans says that since you worked for salvation then you are lacking grace which takes away from the equation.
I have an apologetic which I can add to this but it is your turn to respond if you would like.
@MysteriumFidei@xanga - Jesus disagrees with you: "And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel."
Why do you have repentance before gospel? Is it one thing to do or two things? "repent, believe"? You have them seperate. Do you know why? Repentance is a step. All of the repentance you need is in the word "believe".
I asked you where repentance is in 1 Corinthians 15. I didn't get an answer.
"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Then does belief alone qualify as a work? See reflect John 6:28-29 in your answer:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Works means no grace? No, works are only possible with God's grace. Without works you cannot be saved.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
@Roadkill_Spatula@xanga - "We are saved by faith, not through anything we do. Our faith is shown by our works."
I think that a lot of works being done are dead works and people can be confused and think they are saved because they are doing dead works:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
@Pickwick12@xanga - "I do not believe we are justified by our works. I said that above. I believe, though, that anyone who is saved will have works after they are saved because God's Spirit living in a person always produces good fruit."
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Even if I had dead faith, it has to die and it will bring forth much fruit because it is dead.
When a seed is planted, it is dormant in the ground. Is it living or dead?
1 Cor. 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
In other words, unless you dug it up, you couldn't see it after it was planted and watered until God gives the increase.
But you determined what faith has to be and I disagree.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Can you see the spirit according to John 3:8? Why not? Yet you are going to tell me that you can see who is saved and who is not. The seed could be dormant because God decides when to make it grow. You are supposed to let the wheat grow with the tears because if you try to root up something then you will do damage to the true growth (Mat. 13:30) even though you can't see the (spirit) wind (John 3:8).
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The verse doesn't say "might have" or "could have". The verse doesn't say that I have to have faith plus fruit. It says he that believeth on Jesus "hath" everlasting life. This is a clear verse about salvation and when we talk about salvation, we should talk about clear verses instead of unclear verses. The verse you talk about love is about love and Paul's estimation of character which can be burned by fire yet the soul will be saved (1 Cor. 3:15).
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
I got these ideas from Midnightbirdgirl.
Mark Driscoll states that if you wanna become a heretic, then just stop repenting... that's the step to becoming a religious false teacher... one Jesus would call a dog and mock...
Martin Luther stamped the 95 theses to the Wittenburg door and started it off with "A Christian's life is one of repentence..."
we are not saved BY words... we are saved TO work...
Ephesians 2 states it perfectly... it's not what we do that gets us closer to God nor when redeemed by Christ, it's not what we do that pushes us from God positionally... faith in the grace found in the person and work of Jesus is what saves us...
THEN... u need to connect James in... faith without works IS dead... but this is for a Believer who is slothful and gives the idea that faith alone is what changes the world... Jesus calls us to DO good rather than BE good... and in turn... James echoes this idea when he says that how can u tell a hungry man God bless if he's got no food in his stomach... or a cold person to go their way warm w/ God's blessing... God has called us feed the hungry and clothe the naked and so on....
Grace is what saves... works is what confirms salvation...
positionally works doesn't get you anywhere... grace is what saves you... works is what you now do to show the world Jesus...
@leadworshipper82 - I believe strongly in repenting but it is troubling how things are phrased in this discussion.
I believe that all the repentance you need is found in the word "believe".
1 Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
You can't turn to God unless you turn from idols. We are rewarded for belief in God with eternal life and repentance is a step to believe but we are rewarded salvation for believing.
I have a question for you. If you knew that even though you repented that you kept coming up short, would repentance save you?
Sin is a present passive indicative in the Greek
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
"Come short" is hystereō and it is a present passive indicative. In other words, we keep coming up short even though we don't seem to be sinning. "Come short" is present which makes me believe that sin is eternal and its consequences are far reaching. Some people believe that you can earn your way to heaven. You can't earn your way because sin is continually passive and far reaching. That is why it had to be dealt with at the cross.
http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson24.htm
You can't earn your way to heaven because you keep running a deficit or keep coming "short".
http://www.blueletterbibl...mp;v=24&t=KJV#conc/23
If we can repent of everything then we may no longer sin but that would be a lie:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
And I know what the other arguments will be because I have debated them. Someone is going to teach sinless perfection and forget what I just taught about Romans 3:23 and I'm going to teach against it, Lord willing because flesh (sarx) is translated sinful nature in the NIV. That is why you need a sinless substitute to take our punishment because we were never worthy to begin with.
@Sosthenes - i'm not sure what you're implying here... please clarify your point on this...
@leadworshipper82 - It should be translated that we keep coming short of God's glory so if you think repentance is going to do it then you are going to keep trying because you need to repent of self trust and turn to God and trust in Jesus' mercy and forgiveness for Him to do what we cannot do.
@Sosthenes - oh no no no... repentence isn't an act of works to affirm your ability to repent for perfection... repentance is an act of faith in full trust that He hears the repentant heart and trusts in His ability to redeem and perfect... repentance has nothing to do with me more so than it has everything to do with my need for Him to do what only He can do...