Amen. Powerful post.

These people who beat themselves up over their own sins miss the whole point - Christ suffered and died and took our sins ON HIMSELF so we wouldn't have to suffer like that!  How does this message get lost, I wonder?  If we could do it ourselves - punish ourselves enough, or save ourselves - we wouldn't need a Savior.  Kind of diminishes what Christ has already done for us.

*Rolls eyes*. Ohhhhh, Protestantish/Revelife. This is such a lopsided view of grace and so typical of Revelife. The statement "Talk about a messed up view of God and a misunderstanding of grace." is so completely over the line and unnecessary, here. It's hardly a messed up view of God or misunderstanding of grace; it is a view that you refuse to accept. That's your prerogative, but to use such condemning language that casts a blanket aspersion on over a billion people is arrogant to say the least.

While I don't condone the extremes to which some of these people go, I understand why they do what they do. What you call guilt, I call actually cooperating in grace. It is a different teaching of salvation that, as I said, over a billion people accept.

whoa X_X

@acrossthesky1014@xanga - And, see, I consider that simplified explanation of grace to be incorrect as do over a billion other Catholics.

Here is the best example of how we look at grace. It's a little kid who drops a bottle of milk in the kitchen. The bottle breaks, going all over. The kid says sorry to mom and mom says it's no problem. The kid is forgiven of course. But there is still milk all over the floor. Cooperation with that grace we are given is the act of cleaning the milk up. To say that grace is freely given and we in effect have no responsibility cheapens grace and cheapens what Jesus did.

I don't understand why you see it as such a terrible thing.  To walk in God's path?  To try to understand the pain He suffered for our sake?  It sounds more like empathy to me.  Maybe because my father is Filipino and taught me about the tradition when I was younger...

Maybe it's because I just think of it this way: if suffering the way He suffered helps them to understand what Jesus did out of love for us, maybe the men who go through the Filipino tradition of crucifixion are just that much stronger and more loving than the rest of us.

@fourthelement@xanga - being Filipino myself, I can understand how Filipino culture (and most asian cultures anyway) values tradition a lot. And I agree with you to certain degree on the fact that suffering can help us understand God (hence why some Christians fast, I suppose).

But I think the idea that the author is trying to get across is that when we start replacing grace with our actions, relying solely on our efforts to appease a God, then there is a slight misunderstanding. Grace should be what produces those actions... not our actions producing the grace of God. Otherwise it wouldn't be grace at all if we had to work for it.

However, if a person feels compelled to experience a quarter of what his Savior went through, then we don't have any right to tell that person that he/she is misguided.

It's terrible that they do this to themselves...

One of the reasons that Christ died was so that we did not have to feel punishment like this.

@scramBledmegZntoasT@xanga - I think that you misunderstand the Protestant view. I agree with your analogy with the child spilling the milk. There is still milk on the floor. But we are not alone in cleaning it up, as you know. Yes, with the grace God gives and the freedom from sin we receive from that grace comes responsibility. You would be hard pressed to find a Protestant that denies that. The flaw in your argument, however, is how you could believe that God is in anyway happy or appreciative of what those people are doing. They're hurting themselves in guilt! God tells us in the Bible (read Joel) that we should be sad and feel guilty of those things of which we have done, and we can NEVER measure up to that grace which he gives, but we ARE forgiven! Jesus died on the cross so we don't need to feel the punishment of death for our sins! To say that we still need to punish ourselves for what we have done cheapens God's grace. I have scars all across my arms, stomach, chest and legs punishing myself for what I have done, and looking back on those scars I sob at how much I and all the other people that punish themselves for their sins must have saddened God. His son was condemned and tortured for our sins so that we did not need to feel condemnation or torture for our sins. Yes, that is bloody unfair that perfection dies in the place of sinners, but that doesn't mean we need to try and appease God by doing the best acts we can so he doesn't strike us down. Yes, we should do good things. I am not denying that. But even a good deed can be totally changed by the intentions of the person doing it. We are called, regardless of what part of Christianity we're from, to give from the goodness of our hearts and expect nothing in return.

@Gay - If you break up with someone, and then get back together...you still go through the pain of the breakup.  

@Gay - It is if you break up with them and remove them from your life.  I just did this recently...believe me...it is.

@NightCometh@xanga - You are so right about that - and the pain of separation from God must have been excruciating for Jesus.  Never thought of it quite like that before - usually we focus on the physical pain he endured, and the emotional pain of leaving his loved ones - but to remember what it feels like to have to break up with someone - to be separated from someone you love so deeply - it's an emotional and physical scourge like no other.

@scramBledmegZntoasT@xanga - I think you yourself are misunderstanding the Catholic faith.  Christ died for our sins, hence no physical sacrifice needs to be made anymore.  Only spiritual sacrifice.  Cleaning up that spilled milk = repentance and confessing our sins.  By doing this, we receive God's grace which gives us the strength to appease Him by following His word.  According to your interpretation, we should still be sacrificing animals as was done in the Old Testament as atonement for our sins.  Yes, they feel guilt, and guilt is the first step necessary towards repentance.  But they should feel the pain they caused for Christ to go on that cross to die for those sins committed,

You said that "To say that grace is freely given and we in effect have no responsibility cheapens grace and cheapens what Jesus did."  Grace is free, but it is not cheap.  God freely gives His grace to anyone who believes, but we must maintain that grace in our lives and in our hearts, living up to that grace, or else we will be held accountable for our actions, having no excuse on the Last Day.  Consider the analogy of a loving father giving his son a Lamborghini after he gets his license.  He gave that extremely expensive car to his son for free, but that gift requires a whole lot of special care.

Happy Resurrection!