U.S. District Judge Ed Kinkeade recently dismissed claims of parent David Croft who wanted the words "under God" removed from the Texas Pledge of Allegiance that the school kids recite each day. The short article is here:
Judge rules on Texas pledge.
The debate on whether or not "under God" should be in our national pledge of allegiance has been an off and on topic for some time. But, there were a couple of interesting facets about this ruling I thought were interesting. The first is that Judge Kinkeade felt that since "under God" is already in the National pledge and also that of four other states, it must not be unconstitutional.
Okay - I'm not a lawyer, but just because a few states "do" something doesn't seem to me to be a good legal argument for the constitutionality of a case. I mean, think about it. How many times did you ever hear your mother tell you, "If Jenny or Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"
Next was this: We have STATES out there that have kids recite their STATE Pledge of Allegiance? Wow. Of course, if it is just Texas, then I understand.
Finally, we come to the one point that inspired me to write this post. It is another comment by Judge Kinkeade:
"A voluntary recitation of the Texas Pledge of Allegiance simply does not coerce students in the same way a school-sponsored prayer might."
Okay, so the judge feels that school-sponsored prayer is coercive. Fine. Let's take that at face value and not get distracted on this aspect of the position. How then is that recitation of a state pledge would NOT be coercive?
If I teach a child to repeat a promise to be faithful to God, or nation, or state, isn't the effect the same? Do we not imprint on those young minds a very specific social perspective? When we encourage repetition of Bible verses, we do very much hope those words will transform into Godly values and perspectives upon their young hearts. Why would wouldn't requiring children to recite a pledge to anything be any different?
What do you think - Is there power in the Pledge?
The debate on whether or not "under God" should be in our national pledge of allegiance has been an off and on topic for some time. But, there were a couple of interesting facets about this ruling I thought were interesting. The first is that Judge Kinkeade felt that since "under God" is already in the National pledge and also that of four other states, it must not be unconstitutional.Okay - I'm not a lawyer, but just because a few states "do" something doesn't seem to me to be a good legal argument for the constitutionality of a case. I mean, think about it. How many times did you ever hear your mother tell you, "If Jenny or Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"
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Comments (25)
It's power is only as strong as the faith you put into the pledge. Personally, I wouldn't recite the pledge of Allegiance, but that is my opinion.
The debate shouldn't be whether "under G-d" belongs in the America pledge of allegiance but rather how can we serve two masters and pledge our allegiance to anything other than the kingdom of G-d? Why merely be under him when we are to be with him?
I think pledges of allegiance are important. Words are powerful. They are the overflow of the heart (Job 33:3), wield the power of life and death (Prov. 18:21), serve as the rudder of our bodies (James 3:1-12) and more. Words are so important that a yes needs no backing by promise or swear (James 5:12). Words speak of who we truly are and where we stand as well as lead us into our future not only mentally and emotionally but socially.
The Psalms inform of us what our mouths/tongues/words are capable of.
i have to say, from experience, whenever i say the pledge, i don't think about what i'm saying. so if they banned "under God" from the pledge i'd still say it without even thinking about it.
honestly, our pledge doesn't mean anything to me. i've never said it and meant it, except for maybe meaning "under God" a couple times.
and little kids don't know what they're saying when they say it. when you learn something by rote like that when you're little, and it's not explained to you, it's just words coming out of your mouth.
so what i guess i'm saying is, a lot of people don't say the pledge, they recite it.
Allegience is a much different thing, and a far lesser thing, than what we pledge to God as Christians. By pledging allegience to our flag, we are pledging loyalty. What we pledge to God is nothing less than our entire being. The comparison is not even close and there is no conflict.
From a legal standpoint, the Texas court's decision is perfectly reasonable. The author is making the argument that a pledge to a nation or state is the same as the one we make to God, therefore equating a patriotic sign with a thoughtful glorification of our Lord. The leading of a Christian prayer before a class of public school students is far different than the leading of a patriotic exercise. In a Texas classroom it is right and appropriate that all children be taught patriotism and loyalty to the nation that is providing them with an education. The recital of a prayer that may be contrary to the religious upbringing of a child is likely to be of great offense. It doesn't even take the example of a class full of students being led in an Islamic prayer to prove how this could be offensive even to so many here. Think of if I led your child in a prayer at school; it would quite possibly involve a request for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin or a Saint. Can you truly tell me you would not be a bit upset if you are a protestant Christian?
I don't think there's much power in the pledge anymore, at all, no matter how it's worded. I remember when I was in school, we'd have to say it every day. Kids would be goofing off, kids wouldn't say it, some wouldn't even stand up. Among all of that, I don't think many people even realize why they're saying the pledge of allegiance anymore.
That's just like how during school we used to have a moment of silence. Most of the people in my classes had no idea what that was for, didn't care, and didn't cooperate. The moment of silence was therefore ruined because the teacher would have to repeatedly scold certain individuals who decided to, again, goof off during the entire thing.
the pledge is a recitation. prayer is talking to God. What if God talked back to the kid sometime?
I wouldn't say the pledge of allegiance. You can't serve two masters. I do believe their is power in words, and the pledge, that's why I wouldn't say it. I'm not American, I live in America.
i never said the pledge of allegiance in high school. pledging to a flag is not something i do in a free country, that's something one does in a dictatorship or something like that. also, 'under God' was only added to the pledge because the soviets were an 'atheist nation' and so we decided to defy them during the cold war by that addition.
seriously, go back and watch videos of kids reciting the pledge from before the 50s and you won't hear under God.
Seems like I remember from somewhere that a higher court ruled on the "In God We Trust" on our coins as being, basically, a meaningless idiom like "God bless you" when someone sneezes. I would not be surprised, though, to see the phrase removed in the not too distant future. The question is will it be immediately replaced by another expression of loyalty to some one (thing) else? And, speaking of that, has anyone looked at the symbol of the Euro lately? Nope, I'm not into trying to figure out the future before it gets here, but speculation is an interesting pastime once in awhile.
In 1 Peter 2 it talks about us being strangers in this world and that we are part of a diffrent nation. I agree with@crevis05@xanga - when he says that he lives in America, but he is not an American citizen. We as Christians are not any nationality except for the nationality of Christ. We are in this world to bring more people into this nationality. I do not say the Pledge of Allegiance any more because i do not like lying, i have not allegiance to the United States because my allegiance belongs to God. I of course follow all the rules and regulations that the country has because we are commanded too in the second half of 1 Peter 2 but i am not of this country, i am just visiting.
i would assume it is only Texas...i tried to google it and nothing else came up....which totally makes sense because in case you didn't know Texas originally was set up to be it's own country, not a state.
"Under God" never used to be in the Pledge of Allegiance to begin with. It was only added in 1954 as a snotty comeback to the rise of Communism in the Soviet Union. It was just America's way of saying, "Na-na, na-na, na-naaaaa .. We have God on our side and you don't!"
And I agree, it has some degree of power when children are told to recite it daily. I don't think that clause should be in the pledge at all.
I think there is incredible power in a pledge/oath, which is why it is spoken about in Matthew 5.
Being a non-American I have never really 'got' the whole swearing to the flag thing.
As a Christian, it seems slightly iky- especially given that the 'under God' wasn't added until much later on.
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly proud of my heritage, but have never felt the need to swear by anything. Rather let my yes be yes and my no be no.
I realize this PoV might make me unpopular, so if anyone would like to take the time to explain it too me, I would love that.
i've never not said the pledge of allegiance (yet), but it's been bothering me for a while and i've been thinking about stopping. i've pretty much decided i can't say it anymore. it makes me uncomfortable to stand with a mass of people and recite, recite, recite my promise of loyalty to a country, like we're a herd of animals or cult members doing what we're told. i consider myself more of a global citizen than an american citizen anyway, in the sense that i don't think the us is (or should be) the greatest country in the world and i do care about the rest of the world and the effect we're having on them, and i care more about the common good than what is good for me or for america alone.Â
and about the pledge of allegiance being "voluntary"? it's ingrained in you. you're not taught (at least i wasn't) that it's voluntary and you can choose to decline to participate, you're taught that now it's time to stand up and say the pledge. what's that phrase? if you can't say no, you can't say yes? and in my observation, the few people who don't recite the pledge with everyone else attract dirty looks and condemnation. i don't care if people disapprove of me, but it's the reasoning behind it. as if refusing to pledge your allegiance to the american flag makes you a traitor and a terrorist. it doesn't exactly support the "voluntary" aspect of the pledge..There's power in anything that's repeated. Isn't that how brainwashing works?
I first lived in Canada, where we had to sing the national anthem and say the Lord's Prayer every morning (yes, I'm old... that was back when prayer was allowed in school). When I moved to California, I was then indoctrinated with a new pledge: the Pledge of Allegiance. What I found interesting was that, despite the fact that I wasn't a Christian, the reciting of the Lord's Prayer every morning had had a lasting impact on my brain: I kept wanting to end the Pledge of Allegiance with "Amen"!
So, yeah... there's power in a pledge or a prayer. Though, other than affecting the brain like that, I don't really know how much other power it would have. All of those prayers and pledges were just words to me at that age... something to be memorized because that was the thing to do.
This reminds me of the episode of Full House where Stephanie is about to go to grade school and DJ mentions something about knowing the pledge of allegiance. Then answering Stephanie's questioning look, DJ and Kimmy recite the pledge of allegiance in like three seconds... that's how it is. The words mean nothing to the kids that have to recite it. I remember having to do it every single morning during K-5 and I never really thought about what i was saying.
After about ninth grade I didn't really say the pledge. Sometimes, eh. But not usually. I just stand there while everyone else rattles it off. It isn't a huge issue to me, but I decided I'd rather not pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth or a republic for which it stands. My ultimate allegiance belongs to God and the state has my allegiance only as long as it aligns with what I understand to be God's will.
QQ less.
the pledge meant nothing to me as a kid. now that i'm more conscious of my, and anyone's, actions and words, i wouldn't be comfortable with forcing my kid to say ANY pledge or prayer.
Nobody pays attention to the pledge; if they do, they won't say what they disagree with. Duh.
I don't understand why Christians in the US feel a need to merge god and county.
CM ~
In my opinion, it is important to keep those words in the Pledge. But just because they are there, doesn't mean that people are going to live their lives any differently, it's a symbolic thing. But important nonetheless.
I'm a student in middle school. I have been researching this topic for some time now for a paper I have to complete. I have a few question that need different opinions. The questions are:
Do you think the words "Under God" should be taken out of the pledge of allegience? Why or why not?
When you were a child did you mind saying the pledge of allegience? If you didn't say it why not?
Do you believe that one day it will ever be taken out?
Would you mind saying the pledge of allegience today?
What is your religion?
What is your age?
What is your profession(job)?
If you or anyone you know would like to help me out and answer these questions it would be greatly appreciated. If you would like to answer these questions please send the answer to woodysfabfive@aol.com. Thank you for your time.