I know this question has been asked for thousands of years, but..."Why, God?"
And is there a single answer, one that covers the tragedies of cancer and murder, of the Burma cyclone and the Rwanda genocide?
Is every thing that does happen God's will, or is there some factor that will make God act in some scenarios but not for others? (argued either that God protects some and lets things happen to others; or that God gets fed up and 'smites' some, but lets others go). Or is this just a 4000-mile radius ant farm where God just lets us 6 billion critters go nuts, hands-off until the end of the world?
Although I understand and agree that a lot of things in life are cause and effect, I do NOT believe that 'everything happens for a reason.' Not the way I hear people use the phrase. That is sentimental fatalistic baloney. I reject that completely with every fiber of my being. Terrible stuff happens, and it's not always God's will. Sometimes it's just stupid people doing really dumb stuff.
Why do we pray 'Thy will be done' unless it ain't being done on earth yet? Tragedy is not God's will. Senseless violence is not God's will. The winner of the football game is irrelevant.
I believe in God, but I also believe in Henley:
I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
(Reposted and tweaked from Republic of Swain, which was an expansion on a point in a blog here)Do you believe that all tragedies and unfortunate circumstances are God's will?
True
Comments (76)
I always ask people if God is always merciful to us why He still lets catastrophes occur and bad guys like devils exist in the world? Some told me He's trying to hone our skills in survival, or simply trying to make us stronger.
"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything
he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and
herds
are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike
everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." The
LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your
hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out
from the presence of the LORD.' (--from Job 1)
Job then suffers a series of horrible disasters, including war, lightning strikes, a destructive windstorm, and (later) disease.
We are told several things from this passage:
--Satan was the one who conceived of this particular series of disasters, and seems to be the motive force behind them.
--Satan needed permission to inflict disaster, and even after he got his permission, he was given limitations.
Does
this mean that all natural disasters are caused by Satan? No, not
really. It just means that some could be. (It's noteworthy, though,
that one of the Hebrew words for "evil" is also the word for
"calamity.")
God, also, seems to sometimes be behind natural disasters.
'Satan
rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel...
This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished
Israel... "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: three years of famine, three months of being swept away
before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of
the sword of the LORD -days of plague in the land, with the angel of
the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should
answer the one who sent me."
David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands
of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into
the hands of men." So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead.' (--from 1 Chronicles 21)
Here,
Satan takes more of a "tempter" role, but when David succumbs, it's God
who does the punishing--via plague. Here, God seems to be using a
natural disaster as a form of punishment. God also sometimes seems to
take the form of a non-punitive natural disaster--a whirlwind, for
example.
Does that mean that all natural disasters are punishments from God? No, not really. It just means that some could be.
Read on, to find the Man Himself's take on such things.
'Now
there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans
whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus
answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than
all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or
those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you
think
they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell
you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."' (--from Luke 13)
Jesus
really seems to refute the idea that calamity always = God's wrath, or
at least God's wrath directed at the specific people involved in the
calamity. He cites two examples: a case of political torture and a
natural disaster. He attributes them neither to God nor to Satan.
I
think that sometimes disasters just happen. As a previous commenter
pointed out, nature is itself under the fallenness that humanity
brought into the world. We have tornadoes, tsunamis, architectural
collapses--and I don't think that every time one happens we can say
with authority "The Devil did it!" or "God did it!"
So, if we
have something like a tsunami, and you ask me what caused it, I'm going
to say, "Undersea tectonics." Maybe Satan caused it--I'll allow for
the possibility. And maybe God was punishing some specific sin--I'll
allow for that possibility as well. But I have no knowledge of such
things, no security camera feed from heaven's throne room. So you
won't hear me saying that Katrina was to wipe out the sin of New
Orleans, or that 9/11 was Satan's attack on God's People, or anything
like that.
@Clawman -
The argument you proposed is common.
P1) If God is benevolent and omnipotent, he would destroy evil.
P2) Evil exists
therefore,
C) God does not exist.
However, given the first two premises, I think a second argument works as well.
P1) If God is benevolent and omnipotent, he would destroy evil.
P2) Evil exists.
therefore,
C) God will eventually destroy evil.
And perhaps the reason why God has not destroyed evil is in this statement: if God destroyed every source of evil at midnight, where would you be at 12:01? The bible teaches that the reason why God is slow in destroying evil is because he is patient, desiring that people would turn to him before they are caught up in his judgment of evil.
No, it was man's will.
@Theophilus166@xanga - Oh, yeah, now I get it. God in his infinite wisdom gives us a little rope, and watches what we do with it. Of course, being all knowing, he knows exactly what we will do (evil), but being all-merciful, he will forgive us, so we're back where we started: God and his great pinball machine of life . . . What kind of fairy-tale land do you people inhabit anyway?
@Clawman - Is that any different than a parent who knows what will happen when they give their children freedom? Should a parent refuse to allow a child to ride a bike because they know that they'll fall off at some point? The only alternative is locking them away and taking away their freedom. Is that really something we'd want God to do with us?
@Theophilus166@xanga - Yes, Theo, it is completely different. The freedom a parent gives a child is measured out, to help the child to learn how to make wise, safe choices, on his own, for the purpose of growth. In your macabre God-ordered universe, the "Parent" creates this incredible minefield of natural disasters, genocides, wars, and other catastrophes, and tells the child: "Go for it. Let's see if you can make your way around this little fun park. You may not survive, especially if you live in the developing world, but hey, you can't have everything." He has the power to make things better, of course, but that wouldn't be any fun. You say: "The only alternative is locking them away and taking away their freedom." Freedom to what? Die of malaria? Starve? The only freedom enjoyed by a quarter of the world's population is the freedom to die an early dismal death, or to be washed away by a tsunami. Another one of God's little scenarios to being us closer to him? Sounds pretty twisted to me . . . Our imaginings of God are all symptoms of our individual psychoses.
There are numerous verses in the Bible which state the world will become tired in the last days. In Isaiah I believe the quote is stumbling as if drunken.
Then I am reminded of the poem by a protestant minister who ended up in a concentration camp .Forgive me for paraphrasing. When they came for the communists. I said nothing because I was not a communist.When they came for the Jews. I said nothing I was not a Jew. When they came for the trade unionists . I said nothing I was not a trade unionists. When they came for the Catholics. I said nothing I was not a Catholic. When they came for me there was no one to speak.
The earth may be tired but God doesn't enter unless we speak. When someone asks where was God . I often wonder if anyone took him there.
Oh yay, a theodicy debate! Dostoevsky couldn't figure it out when he had Ivan and Alyosha debate it in Brothers Karamazov, Wiesel struggled with it in The Trial of God... but I'm sure a post on revelife will figure this out.
I started writing a lot out for this, and realized that it required more attention than a post in revelife could give it. So I made my own post on theodicy. I address hidden harmony, free will, greater good, etc. I welcome anyone who wishes to see it to come and comment.
@Clawman - The problem with your statement is that in my worldview, the "fun park" of genocides, wars, and disasters is a product of our own choices. It was not created that way, and is like that only because of our choices. You can blame it on God, but that's not part of my worldview. Perhaps the God you're imagining made a world like that, but don't confuse that with my understanding.
As a prof of mine in college once said, the global problem of food is not due to a lack of production, but a lack of distribution. Even starvation exists because we are unwilling to care for those who are starving. We as Americans (and westerners on the whole) consume a ridiculous amount of natural resources, and then have the audacity to blame God when developing nations don't have enough to survive.
@SirNickDon@xanga - It's also true that humans had dominion over the earth, so their fall left the earth in some sort of disarray as well.
In Genesis it is clear that God is the one who meeted out the punishment of suffering. The fall of man changed the nature of man, but it was God who created chiggars, ticks, disease, etc.
@Theophilus166@xanga - Theo, how are natural disasters--earthquakes, tsunamis, Pompeii, the mosquito, leprosy, famine, a rampaging elephant, a flood--"our" choices? They are random events; some call them "acts of God." My question is, why? A hurricane hits Haiti, 3000 die. The same hurricane hits Miami, one person dies. Does God have a "plan" for Haiti that's different from his "plan" for Miami? Or is he a God of Random Cruelty? My old Catholic confessor, confronted by these and other questions, answered: "We cannot know God's ways." That's an answer that may satisfy a child; it doesn't satisfy a developed mind. When I hear someone say that today, I interpret it as: "Er, I don't know. Let me consult my Book of Faith. I'll get back to you." By the time he gets back to me, I'm already gone. The Lord gave me a brain to come to these rational conclusions. He didn't give me a brain to incorporate children's stories . . .Let me put that another way, my brain "evolved" naturally to wean me from children's stories.
I'll take my cue from Richard Dawkins: “In a universe
of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication,
some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you
won't find any rhyme or reason in it nor any justice. The universe we observe
has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no
design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless
indifference.”
Now if you want to posit for me a God of "blind, pitiless indifference," then maybe we can talk!
If we said that the evil things that happen are not God's doing, then we would be saying that God is NOT in control of the evil things that happen; and that He can't prevent it. Of course then we're admitting that God is not all powerful. I believe that God is in control of everything in this world, and He allows things to happen for a reason, yes it is His will.
I've heard sermons preached on this subject, and it comes down to this.
The Decreed Will of God
The Desired Will of God
His decreed will is everything that is going to happen, as He decrees it. No doubt about it. The desired will is His desire for us, for example, that every one should be saved. He desires that everyone be saved, but that's not going to happen. It doesn't mean that He doesn't have a plan for it, though.
I think it's important for us to realize and accept that God is in control of everything and that He is working it all out for good. It wouldn't' be very comforting to have a God who can't stop evil things from happening, IMO!
There is sin and inherited sin [iniquities] from generation to generation. The world is like a man who is grown old, he is loosing all his hair [Forrest] the sweet meadows have turned into deserts, the spring waters have dried up and the rivers of life [veins] have become polluted, he battles his diseases like never before, his diseases are overtaking him, people are like cells that come and go to an early death. Although He desires His true father, Sataniel is his landlord. We were never meant to die.
From Genesis to Revelation God is a God of love! He does not have a big stick that He is beating us with. Man has authority over the earth and it is up to us to care for our planet and care for our individual bodies. God is also a perfect gentleman and He will not intrude in our lives unless we ask Him. Sickness and catastrophes are Satan's doing not God's. Praise God, His Word says that you are a winner in Christ! All you have to do is ask Him to fix your problem and He will......I dare you to ask Him! May God bless you beyond your wildest dreams!!
Helen
@Brandon_thewriter@xanga - take for example I am trying to decide between two things - A and B. A I know isn't a good option and not something God would want me to be involved in, but it's really appealing and doggone I just like A. B is the better option, and I know it's what God would want me to do. But, I gave into my fleshly desires and I did A. Little to my knowledge, God had a lot in store for me if I chose B. But instead I didn't obey the Holy Spirit and blindly chose A without knowing all the consequences that it would later bring. However, because God is a loving God he will use some of those consequences for the better, but He could never bless me the same way if I'd have chosen B. That's what I mean by not obeying.
Did you know that the tension between Islam and Christianity goes all the way back to Abram and his decision to sleep with Hagar, his wife's servant, who bore him Ishmael, which is where the Muslims trace themselves back. But Isaac, Abraham's wife's son born later, is the one God planned to use to bless and fulfill his covenant with Abraham. (someone correct me if i'm wrong)
@ramblesofalison@xanga - okay... thats sounds good and christian.
@LoBornlite@xanga - Definitely God cursed the ground and made our natural task of putting it in order more difficult. Thorns, biting insects, perhaps soil depletion and the like are all part of that. Do you think a home burning down fits into that scheme? Or the levees breaking around New Orleans? In other words, are all natural ailments included, or only specific ones that make it harder for us to work the land?
@whataboutbahb@xanga - This is not an attempt to become part of the argument; I just hope to clarify, since others' responses to your question were unclear.
I think what the other commenter was trying to say is that when God created the world, it was perfectly stable. He didn't screw it up; people (through sin) did. And that sin allowed Satan (the author of all things evil) plenty of freedom to do as he pleases on earth, which includes stealing, killing, and destroying stuff (John 10:10). It is my understanding that sin screwed up the world itself, not just the people living in it--in fact, in the Garden of Eden, I don't think it so much as rained (Gen. 1).
The crazy stuff that happens (natural disasters, etc) is the direct result of sin entering the world. The consequences of what happened in the Garden of Eden changed the earth forever, and so we are still reaping them today in various forms (as well as suffering the direct consequences of our own individual actions). God gave Man (the human race, that is) free will both to make choices and to reap the consequences, good or bad, of those choices.
Therefore, God does not cause bad things to happen; however, He allows them to happen for whatever reason. Why do they happen when they do? Why do they hurt all kinds of people?What determines when and where this stuff happens? Truth is, I have no idea...but that wasn't the original OP's question anyway.
Hope this helped.
i definitely don't believe so. and i'm with you in discounting the idea that everything happens for a reason.
@whataboutbahb@xanga -
"And if it is not his "will" that these disasters would happen, why create such a unstable living place in the first place where random horrific acts will occur every so often? It's a hard question to answer."
It is a hard question to answer. But I think that natural evils are a result of moral choices, namely the choices of satan. So, natural evils conform to moral evils by being the result of the choices of persons. However silly that response may sound to you, naturalism has greater difficulty in accounting for natural evil; it's typical response is to deny natural evils exist. The reason for this is that moral wickedness/virtuousness are always tied to persons that are responsible for those events. If naturalism is true, there are no persons who caused those events and those events are not evil. (there just isn't any physical property that can be considered to be "evil" or "good"; only relative constructs.) The premise "natural evils exist" may challenge Christianity, but (if it's true) it refutes naturalism. If that's the case, the Christian may wonder God's reasons for permitting this stuff to happen, but I really have no other worldview to go if i want to keep believing that calamities are truly evil (not just unpreferable to human beings, but objectively wrong-doings).
In after 1000 replies about how all of the evil in the world is man's doing.
I've used this argument once, but it's inevitable that I repeat it over and over.
If you believe God created everything, than that must mean he made the devil and man. If man and devil are evil, than God is indirectly responsible for all the evil in the world.
Really, don't most of you blame the parents of kids that shoot up schools, for not raising their kids properly? What's worse is God can't use the excuse of human limitation, You'd think an all knowing,all powerful being would make a damn good father and keep his children in check.
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Also, to counter against the response of "Evil is simply the void of Good", no it's not that simple. The opposite of any powerful emotion, is apathy.
And apathy can indirectly cause both good and bad things to happen. I imagine that's what your God is, providing he exists.
the sin and destruction in this world is the result of the abcense of God, not his will
If you believe in Jesus as your savior, You wouldn't think that you are the captain of your soul. I wouldn't begin to believe that I can fully understand God's will. That's why it is his and not mine. describing God's thoughts- For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9
@lingromanzecool@xanga -
"Some told me He's trying to hone our skills in survival, or simply trying to make us stronger."
Or Harder, Better, Faster, AND Stronger.