Saturday, 07 March 2009
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Advice Needed: Figuring Out a Catholic-Jewish Marriage
I'm not engaged, but we ultimately plan on marriage, and we do talk about it a lot. Recently the topic of religion came up (oh no...).
I am Roman Catholic. I do pray, believe in God etc. and I was raised Catholic and although I have been contemplating researching other religions under the Christian faith, I have always dreamed of getting married in the same church as my parents or my elementary school church, which is beautiful. Jacob was raised Jewish. However, he does not practice the faith nor does he barley even believe in it. He claims to have read the Bible but doesn't believe in it.
The way I see it, if he doesn't believe in much to begin with, why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy? The way he see it is that his family will disapprove (as would mine). There are loopholes, however. An interfaith marriage can take place with permission from the bishop. Meaning he wouldn't have to "convert" (if thats even what we should call it). Or he can become a baptized Christian, which would still require permission, but give us a better chance. I would assume that this permission would include questions like, "have you engaged in premarital sex?" And no, I couldn't lie, I would feel too bad.
This is a very sensitive issue for me and it is really important to me too. Although I try to explain the importance to him, it seems that he is simply being stubborn more than anything and I don't know what to do.
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to go about this or maybe a similar experience?
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- From: key19@xanga
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Comments (28)
"The way I see it, if he doesn't believe in much to begin with, why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy?"
Why does he have to think the way you do to make you happy? What if that makes him unhappy?
"why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy?"
You're way too self centered to marry. People have their dignity. He's not a car you can just buy in different colors asshole. >_>
Juxtapose these two sentences, try to think about them objectively, and you may begin to see a big part of the problem:
"...it seems that he is simply being stubborn more than anything..."
"....why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy?"
You don't believe the same things. You don't share the same yoke/teaching. Neither of you will be satisfied with any decision you come to it seems because any decision must be rooted in compromise (not servant like submission). There are a lot of barriers it seems.
Have you gone through pre-marital counseling?
I foresee this post having lots of comments from Christians and non-Christians who will probably arrive at the same conclusion. If nothing else, this post may have been successful at bringing people together in something, lol.
If your faith is important to you - if you really believe what it teaches and intend to learn to apply what you believe, you are probably not going to like how this turns out. If, on the other hand, you don't place as high a value on your faith as you do the prospect of being married, you will probably come to forget your faith entirely - until you come to a crisis in your life. Either way, you are unlikely to help him "convert" Conversion - true conversion - is not merely an intellectual thing. It is an affair of the heart and soul as well as the mind. I'm sure that you must realize that it is between him and God, and that he cannot come to God in faith if his eyes are only on you and he is only going through the motions in order to please you.
Get married in Vegas with Elvis presiding!
like some of the others, I suspect you are not mature enough to be ready for marriage but that's just my opinion. you seem to be very self-centered and also interchange a school and a church easily. you're still in a fairy tale world and haven't put on your big girl panties yet.
However, on a very serious note when people have children religion suddenly becomes very important. Very. Esp in jewish and catholic families which have practiced their faith for centuries-not just decades. What may not matter now, will become extremely important later. Life has triggers that send us back to God-usually thru the faith we were raised in. Children, marriage, illnesses, deaths, etc. And they will happen. Give it a few years and think it over.@k_emetib@xanga - I agree. Vegas sounds good!
My sister and her husband had a similar dilema. They settled on compromising where and by whom they were married. They were married by a judge at their favorite restaurant.
Actually you can marry in the Catholic Church. Check this site out by a local priest: http://www.clevelandpriest.blogspot.com
It is the February 12th post you may find interesting. Best of luck!
I have been struggling for some time on how to respond to this. One of the first things that comes to mind are the words, "free will." Now, while I may believe, I cannot say I truly subscribe to any one faith these days. It is deeper than placing a label on it, at least for me.
This desire of yours to have him see and do things your way is wrong. How can you hope to have a successful marriage if everything is to always be one way: your way? I'm sorry, but it will never work. I believe the two of you need to sit down and discuss this more in depth. First by yourselves, and if that does not resolve the issue, then it would seem the two of you may need to seek outside assistance.
Marriage is about compromise. You must keep in mind that you are both two totally different people. Even if there are similarities, you are still both unique. To say such things as, "The way I see it, if he doesn't believe in much to begin with, why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy?" is a foolish, immature statement. I'm sorry, but it does not work that way. He shouldn't have to convert for you, as that completely defeats the purpose of religion and faith. He should do it because he feels drawn to it, because he believes in it, not because it will make you happy. With regard to religion, one must embrace it of one's own free will, not have it forced. It will never work otherwise, and will only breed resentment. Perhaps you should either rethink this decision, or agree to a compromise which will be beneficial to you both.
http://equalitybasedonthesoul.com
Historically Christian and Muslim faiths have their roots in Judaism,
so at their core concepts about the soul, creation and God are all the same.
I would like to address certain linguistic and philosophical similarities common to both Jews and Hindus, which may open up a broader discussion.
1. Names of God,
a. The most holy of all names of God for a Jew is KNA or KANA, Rabbi's have slapped my face when I have said this name out loud.
This is considered to be the most intimate name for God in the Old Testament. Where it is translated, "I am a jealous God, have no other gods before you", the literal Hebrew translation is, "My name is EL KNA, have no other gods before you."
This name expands to KRE ShTN as Rabbi Aryeh Kapln,in Meditation and the Kabbalah explains
"On Monday, you must intertwine the associated name "KRE ShTN""
b, From a Vedic (Hindu) view point, Kana is also an affectionate name of Krishna, The pronunciation used above "KRE ShTN" is very similar to the way south Indians pronounce Krishna.
2. Abraham and Brahma: Very few know that there are two Abrahams in Jewish philosophy
a. There is a description of how the universe was in chaos until Abraham appeared. It is said, "Over the whole, there hovered Tohu (chaos) and as long as Tohu dominated,the whole world was not in being or existence. When did that key open the gates and make the world fruitful?
It was when Abraham appeared." [Genesis II 4] As explained in the introduction to the Zohar The Soncino Press LTD--London New York
There is also this reference one needs to ponder It is said, "Angels are supposed to have no back and four faces, so always to be able to behold God."
[Talmud, cf. Ezek i. 6]
b. In the First Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, there is a long description of how Brahma created the planets, stars etc. It is well known that the Brahma of this universe has 4 heads.
3. DEMIGODS AND ANGELS have the same function in both trations.
a. The Midrash teaches, "There is no blade of grass that does not have a constellation (Mazal) over it, telling it to grow." [Sefer Yetzirah 4.6]
"As commentaries explain, 'God's providence works through the angels, but the angels, in turn, work through the stars and planets. As some authorities put it, the angels are, in a sense, like souls to the stars. Thus, for example, some sources speak of the stars as having intelligence, but the commentaries note that this is actually speaking of the angels that are associated with them.'" [Sefer Yetrzirah 4.6]
b. The Vedic conception is that there are many specially empowered demigods who help manage the affairs of the universe including the planets of our solar system.
The controlling demigods, although not eternal them selves, function within various posts that exist as long as the universe exists. For example, one of the principle demigods is Lord Indra. Indra is the name of the post, but the particular demigod who occupies that post during a given period has his own personal name. Just like President of the United States is a post, but there have been many presidents throughout history.
4. Durga in the Bible?
a. "He summoned to issue from the side of Darkness a kind of female moon, which rules over the night, and is associated with Adonai, the Lord of all the earth. In his days, the moon was magnified and reached her fullness. A thousand mountains rose before her, and she blew them away with a puff. A thousand mighty rivers flowed before her, and she swallowed them at a draught. Her nails reached out in a thousand and seventy directions and her hands in twenty-four thousand, so that nothing could escape her. Thousands of bucklers clung to her hair. From between her feet went forth a youth who stretched from one end of the world to the other with sixty clubs of fire..." [Zohar]
b. The Vedas describe the ghastly form of Goddess Kali, another name for the Goddess Durga. There is a reference of Goddess Kali in the Srimad-Bhagavatam in the history of Jada Bharata, when she manifested herself to protect him. It is stated, "Intolerant of the offenses committed, the infuriated goddess Kali flashed her eyes and displayed her fierce, curved teeth. Her reddish eyes glowed, and she displayed her fearsome features. She assumed a frightening body, as if she were prepared to destroy the entire creation. Leaping violently from the altar, she
immediately decapitated all the rogues and thieves with the very sword with which they had intended to kill Jada Bharata. She then began to drink the hot blood that flowed from the necks of the beheaded rogues and thieves, as if this blood were liquor.
5. (BRAHMAN) EFFULGENCE
a. "The Most Recondite is beyond cognition, but reveals of Himself a tenuous and veiled brightness shining only along a narrow path which extends from Him, and this is the brightness that irradiates all. This is the starting point of all esoteric mysteries, itself being unknowable." [Zohar IV 146b]
b. The Absolute Truth is expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavän." [Srimad Bhagavatam.1.2.11] Brahman refers to the impersonal all-pervasive spirit.
That is the same as the brahmajyoti, the effulgence of the Lord.
6. METATRON AND MAHA-VISHNU
a. It is said that a personality named Metatron cooperates with God to teach the young. While God devotes the last three hours of the day to this work, Metatron is in charge during the remainder of the day. (A.Z. 3b) [Everyman's Talmud, II, III] Regarding the revolving sword or flaming sword that revolves, it is said "the manner in which the sword rotates depends on the readiness of the individual attempting to enter. If he is worthy, it becomes the mirror through which he perceives, while if he is not worthy, he is burned out and cut off by the fire of this sword. The one who oversees the sword, preventing the unworthy from entering, is the angel Metatron." [Meditation and Kabbalah p 80 Chapter 4, Teachings of Rabbi Abraham Abulafia]
"Metatron is therefore not a proper name at all but a designation for the whole category of celestial powers performing a mission."
[Origins of the Kabbalah, III, 6]
b. In the creative process,it is from Maha-Vishnu that all of the universes emanate, Sudarshan Cakra (flaming sword that revolves) controlled by Visnu similarly punishes and grants liberation. "Without illumination,nothing can be seen, especially in this material world.
The illumination in this world emanates from the effulgence of Sudarshan, the original vision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The illuminating principles of the sun, the moon and fire emanate from Sudarshan.
Similarly, illumination by knowledge also comes from Sudarshan." [Srimad Bhag. 9.5.7, Purport]
Also there is a series of Visnu expansions each with a chakra.
7. THE LORD IN THE HEART
a. When the soul is about to descend to this world, it first goes down to the terrestrial Garden of Eden and sees there the glory of the souls of the righteous, and then goes down to Gehinnom and sees the wicked who cry "Woe, woe", and find no compassion. That holy form (God) stands by him until he emerges into the world, after which it keeps him company and grows up with him." [The Zohar 43b] [KI TAZRIA (LEVITICUS)]
b. In the Bhagavad-gita "Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer, who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the Supersoul, Paramatma." [Bg. 13.23]
8. GURU AND RABBI
a. In Judaism, knowledge is also passed from the rabbi to his students, but not everyone is qualified to become a student. "As a matter of law, the sages state that these mysteries 'cannot even be taught to a single individual, unless he is wise enough to understand with his own knowledge.' Even in such a case, the complete tradition was only given over to the head of the group, and he would then only instruct those whom he saw fit. Only individuals
possessing the highest qualities of scholarship and piety would be admitted to the circle of initiates." [Introduction to the Bahir, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan]
It is also stated that "One who reaches the highest level cannot reveal it to anyone. All he can do is give over the keys, so that the enlightened individual
can open the gates which are sealed to exclude the unworthy."
[Meditation and Kabbalah, p 79]
b. In Vedic culture, although a guru would speak to whoever wanted to learn the Vedic science, he was traditionally very selective whom he would initiate as his disciple. He would only accept those persons who qualified themselves by humble submission and service. Lord Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita, "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master, inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."
9. VEDIC AND JEWISH CALENDARS
a. The current Hebrew year is 5767. In this calendar, the year in which Adam was created is counted as year one. If we then count the Biblical genealogies from the time of Adam, we find that over 5,000 years have elapsed since the time he was formed. However, the Kabbalists clearly say that other human beings existed before Adam, and this is even supported in scripture [Drush Or HaChaim] The fifth cycle was the one that brought life, and this took
place around two and a half billion years ago. Around 974 generations before Adam, or some 25,000 years ago, man developed all of the physical and mental capabilities that we possess today...but he still lacked the divine soul that would make him a spiritual being. God then created Adam, the first true human being with a soul, 'and He blew in his nostrils a soul of life'. [Genesis 2.7] [Sefer Yetzirah 4.15]
b. The Vedic calendar states that Kali-yuga lasts 432,000 years, out of which we have passed about 5,000 years.
10.The Ecstasy of Chanting The Names Of God
a. People who have dedicated their lives to the service of God may at times feel unlimited joy or ecstasy while engaged in prayer. It is said, "Permute the letters back and forth, and in this manner, you will reach the first level. As a result of the activity and your concentration on the letters, your mind will become bound to them. The hairs on your head will stand on end and tremble. Your lifeblood is in your heart, and regarding this it is written,
"the blood is the soul" [Deuteronomy 12:23]. It is likewise written, "The blood in the soul will atone" [Leviticus 17:11]. This blood within you will begin to vibrate because of the permutations that loosen it. Your entire body will then begin to tremble, and all your limbs will be seized with shuddering. You will experience the terror of God and will be enveloped with fear of Him. You will then feel as if an additional spirit is within you, arousing you and
strengthening you, passing through your entire body and giving you leisure. It will seem as you have been anointed with perfumed oil, from head to foot. You will rejoice and have great pleasure. You will experience ecstasy and trembling--ecstasy for the soul, and trembling for the body.
[Meditation and Kabbalah, Treasury of the Hidden Eden p85-86]
b. The stage of bhava, love of God, is manifested by eight transcendental symptoms, namely inertness, perspiration, standing of hairs on end, failing in the voice, trembling, paleness of the body, tears in the eyes, and finally trance. [Srimad Bhag. 2:3:24 Purport]
11. GOD'S BEAUTY
a.The Jewish scriptures describe a vision of God. "His head is a treasure of fine gold. His locks are hanging, black like the raven." In both Talmudic and Kabbalistic traditions, one of the interpretations is that it relates to a vision of God; "when He is visualized in battle, He is seen as a young man with black hair." [Sefer Yetzirah Ch 6.1]
b.The Vedas refer to the form of the Lord. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated, "the Lord is super excellently beautiful on account of His open and merciful smile and His sidelong glance upon His devotees. His black hair is curly, and His garments, waving in the wind, appear like flying saffron pollen from lotus flowers. His glittering earrings, shining helmet, bangles, garland, ankle bells, waist belt and various other bodily ornaments
combine with the conch shell, disc, club, and lotus flower to increase the natural beauty of the Kaustubha pearl on His chest." [Srimad Bhag. 2.24.47-48]
@misswonderj@xanga - hey, that's not nice. while i don't agree with that part of her blog entry, calling people assholes based on one sentence makes you one too.
@veee_nessa@xanga - Not really. =]
Please don't suggest that he "convert to make you happy"- I would suggest someone be an atheist over converting for any other reason than to dedicate their entire life to the Lord Jesus and doing his will.
As for the practicality of this post- if the two of you cannot arrive at a peaceful conclusion about what you believe, whose faith you will follow, and what path you will take when raising the Children, then you should not be getting married.
There is nothing wrong with a long engagement. Take some time to pray and seek the Lord in this. You may find that you have quite a bit of changing (mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) to do as well as him.
My parents have different views on a lot of things and it has caused them heartache their entire life. I have been fortunate to find a woman that has very similar beliefs as I do. The growth that we have in Christ together has been of tremendous benefit to us and our ministry.
Just something to think about.
Crimony, have a little respect for other people. You best be trollin'.
you need to grow up. i'll echo someone else's comment: you can't be this self-centered in a marriage.
You can get married in a Catholic church and he does not need to convert or anything. Like you said, just get permission from your Bishop. As far as I have ever heard, Bishops almost never so no as long as you make a promise that you will raise your kids as Catholics. You can have a nuptial Mass and everything, he just cannot receive Holy Communion.
And I am sorry that some people are so judgmental and rude on here but that's just Protestantish for you.
"The way I see it, if he doesn't believe in much to begin with, why can't he just convert to my faith and make me happy? "
Do you honestly think that conversion into the Roman Catholic Church should have pleasing you as it's basis? Or perhaps a true conversion and acceptance of Christ and His Church as the basis?
Forcing conversion onto someone who does not desire it, benefits no one - not you, not him, and not God and His Kingdom.
You can get married in the Church with a non-believer with permission from the Bishop.
According to the Catechism (CCC 1637), "In marriages with disparity [...] the Catholic spouse has a particular task: 'For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband.' It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith. Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.
Hopefully this helps, and you don't take it rudely.
Have a blessed Sunday.
Some of these posts have been less than charitable. I will try to be so.
As a Catholic, who is also a convert, but one who is not getting married because I am going to be a priest... there are several points.
1. Just ask the bishop. SInce Vatican II, I have not heard of a bishop refusing.
2. If your Faith is important enough to you that you should want to get married in it, then you should also follow its tenants, that is, don't have sex again until you are married. Your judgement has to have been clouded here, because the cart was put before the horse. Make sure you have made a good Confession. I also recommend the book Good News about Sex and Marriage bt Christopher West to you.
3. Don't force him to convert. Don't even ask him. Pray for him. Catholic Christianity, with all of the "smells and bells", rituals and Sacraments, is the fulfillment of Temple Judaism. Our Faith is a beautiful thing, Jesus as Messiah and Lord is too great of a blessing to have someone pay lip service to it, and not have it in his heart. You would be doing yourself and him a great disservice, not to mention what you would be obligating him to be and do as a Catholic Christian.
4. You will need to get this figured out as much as possible now...before a wedding. Because if and when children enter the picture, people's ideas about faith and the need for it can change.
Most of all, I will pray for you.
@scramBledmegZntoasT@xanga - "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers"?
An intellectual "okey dokey I'll come along to make you happy" isn't conversion and will not make either of you happy.
you do not really want him to convert just so you two can get married do you?
that would be dishonest on his part, don't you want your husband to be an honest man?
but yeah, just make a petition to the Bishop, Catholics marry Jews every day
when my Mom and Dad got married, my Mother did not even believe in God and my Dad was Catholic, they got married in the Church.
have you talked about what religion you will raise the children? I think that would be a bigger issue then if you have already had sex
My ex and I fought a lot over religious issues because he's Christian while I prefer to hold no religious affiliation. I loved him and I truly wonder if it could happen.... I have no advice for you but I really hope the best for you... maybe you will have more fortune than me and find a way to work things out.