Friday, 27 February 2009

  • Do You Believe in "Original Sin"?



    Do you believe in what is often called "original sin"? It's the idea that babies are already born with original sin and the reason many groups baptize babies. Many others believe in it, too, but don't baptize babies.

    I am studying the idea of original sin right now. I'm trying to study it and not just believe in something because the Catholic church did and the Protestants didn't throw it out when they left Catholicism. I'm trying to find out if the church in the beginning believe in it or not. Jews do not believe in original sin.

    What scripture verses can you give me for or against the idea of "original sin"?

Comments (101)

  • emberfly_layouts@xanga

    Seems like an idiotic idea. I definitely don't believe that brand new babies are sinners already.. unless it's a sin to be born naked... or cry?! I think the whole idea of baptism is to be reborn into the church.. not to rid you of your sins. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to know why you believe it. It seems like a pretty far fetched idea, though. I just can't wrap my head around how babies could be sinners..

  • Sosthenes

    I don't believe in baptizing babies.


    I believe in original sin.

  • Kristenmomof3@xanga

    I just wanted to expand on this though (about Jews and original sin)......Many Jews do believe in "Yetzer Hara" meaning evil inclination. They believe that we got that after Adam's disobedience. And believe that during the Messianic age we will no longer have to deal with yetzer hara as part of ourselves.

  • Kristenmomof3@xanga

    @emberfly_layouts@xanga - I didn't say I believe it....I am asking for scripture for the belief.

  • Kristenmomof3@xanga

    @Sosthenes - what is your belief concerning original sin?
    Do you have scripture supporting it?

  • black_balloon_makes_her_fly@xanga

    Read Polycarp. He studied under John the Gospel. 

  • Kristenmomof3@xanga
  • whataboutbahb@xanga

    Some surface level background reading- Here

    Augustine kind of cemented the idea of original sin into the church (with the addition of sex being the vehicle for the original sin). Martin Luther and John Calvin were pretty much still in line with this view all those years later.

    I'm still kind of curious what the church would be like today if Aquinas' views had held more lasting sway as opposed to Augustine's.

  • MysteriumFidei@xanga

    @whataboutbahb@xanga - The last statement you make is a little curious since St. Thomas also believed in original sin as formulated by St. Augustine. The only point of difference between them was that St. Thomas had difficulties with the exception of original sin being applied to Mary. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the communion which rejects original sin, not the medieval Latin scholastics.

  • whataboutbahb@xanga

    @MysteriumFidei@xanga - 

    Ah, sorry should've been more specific. Was referring to Augustine's association of sex with original sin. Has had a pretty defining affect on western society, and still is going strong in the US (less in UK and even less in mainland Europe) [speaking in broad generalizations].

    Also (to go some off topic):
    Aquinas' emphasis of the marriage of faith with reason is something that many christians don't particularly put much weight in either. It is hard to imagine creationism still being discussed if reason was regarded as complementary rather than something that should be trumped by faith if there is a percieved contradiction.

  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    i don't believe that sin is something that can be inherited.  if original sin is true, then i'm at fault for any sins my parents committed... as well as my grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on.

    nevermind the fact that i don't take Genesis literally.

  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    Try Romans 5:12, 18, 19. 


    And from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC): 


    Following Saint Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul." (CCC, 403).


    In John 1:29 John the Baptist sees Jesus and proclaims, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.  Read on and we understand John and Jesus to be talking about Baptism.


    And from Genesis 3, we know that man was created pure.  After Adam and Eve ate the apple he punished not only Adam, Eve and the Serpent then and there, but for future generations.

  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - i don't believe that sin is something that can be inherited.  if original sin is true, then i'm at fault for any sins my parents committed... as well as my grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on.


    We are not morally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, we are LITERALLY responsible.


    This is clearly demonstrated in dysfunctional families that suffer the ravages of violence, divorce, alcohol and drug abuse.  The sins of the elders are passed to the young.


    And the young are left holding the bag.  Only they can take responsibilty for themselves.  Only they can undo the mess that was handed to them.

  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    @LoBornlite@xanga - except that, things such as thinking lustful thoughts are considered sins as well.  there are no literal repercussions for that.  but if sin is inheritable, and my mom ever once thought a nasty thought about some cute guy, i'm carrying the burden of that sin as well.

    either all sin is morally inheritable, or no sin is morally inheritable.  to try to reach a gray area is just a vain attempt at reconciling a contradiction of theology.

  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    @too_pretty_to_die@xanga - except that, things such as thinking lustful thoughts are considered sins as well.


    It doesn't make any difference.  All sin is inherited.  According to the Book of Genesis man was created pure.  Eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge corrupted mans very nature.  After that man''s nature tended toward sin.


    Even if you don't believe in the Bible, the Genesis account is one heck of an explanation for what is self-evident:  men tend toward sin.  Parents must pump beaucoup goodness into their children to make them good.

  • Kristenmomof3@xanga

    @LoBornlite@xanga - also where do you get the idea that it was an apple that they ate. The bible does not say apple

  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    @LoBornlite@xanga - there's a difference between inheriting a sin, and inheriting a tendency to sin.  or at least, there should be.  if there isn't, i'm gonna stop calling myself Christian ASAP.  

  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    @Kristenmomof3@xanga - also where do you get the idea that it was an apple that they ate.


    From the Revelife picture.  Sorry about that!  The Bible says "fruit".

  • coolmonkey@xanga

    So, what happens to a baby if it dies before it is baptized?

  • Stephanie_J_B@xanga

    I believe in original sin, all humans are born depraved and wicked...look it up. There are many verses about it!


    I don't believe in infant baptism though, it's not the baptism that saves you, so that's going to do absolutely no good.

  • musterion99@xanga

    Do you believe in what is often called "original sin"?

    No. What is sin? Sin is when we break God's commandment. How can a one second-old baby, or even a one month old baby, break God's commandment?

  • Sosthenes

    @Kristenmomof3@xanga - Adam and Eve were the only ones made in God's image.  Adam and Eve then sinned and God gave the curse.  In Genesis 3:15-20 there are changes to the nature of Adam and Eve due to the curse and sin entering into the world which are not a part of God's attributes because God doesn't die except for the human attributes He put on which did.  After Adam and Eve, the Bible says that children were made in Adam's fallen image:


    Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 


    I want to make the distinction that the Bible doesn't say that Seth was made in God's image but that Seth was made in Adam's image.


    Death wasn't part of Adam's image before the fall:


    Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die


    Children die and death is part of the curse so death is something that wasn't there in the beginning.  Is death inherited?


    I don't have my Systematic Theology by Dr. Norman Geisler or other doctrinal books in front of me but Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 speak of original sin:


    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


    Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 


    As far as babies being baptized, I think it is an unscriptural practice.


    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


    You can't believe for babies so you can't save them by baptizing them.  This doesn't mean that babies are damned.


    There are also examples of God witholding judgment from people who don't know the difference between right and wrong so the whole idea of baptizing infants is nonsense:


    Deuteronomy 1:39  Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and

    your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it

    .


    Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle?


    Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.


    2 Samual 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the

    child

    may live?


    2 Samual 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again?

    I shall go to him

    , but he shall not return to me.

  • christin0@xanga
  • princess1505angel@xanga

    @Kristenmomof3@xanga - I believe in what you called "Yetzer Hara."  I beleive that given enough time every baby born will sin (except baby Jesus, obviously).  I don't believe in infant baptism because I think baptism should be part of your declaration to follow Christ and you need to be older to actually make that declaration.


    @coolmonkey@xanga - Babies who die before they accept Christ....I don't know.  I have five siblings who all died in utero so I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and finally realized I'll never know for sure but that if God is all merciful and all just and perfectly good and holy...whatever He does in that situation is right.  And it's not like I have any control over it anyway.  I like to think my siblings are in heaven though.

  • warangel634@xanga

    have you seen this website?  It's all about what you're wondering.
    http://www.gospeltruth.net/OS100bibleverses.htm

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