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Today's featured 'Ask a Denomination' question was submitted by
Amythist_Malaise:
Calvinists often put forth the believe that people are predestined for Heaven, and others are predestined to Hell. Where does free will ("whosoever will may come") factor into this theology? Does God create human souls with the intention of sending those souls to Hell?
True 
Comments (103)
before anyone says anything about "whosoever": this video is a very helpful and interesting listen.
After having theology taught to me from a Calvinist perspective, this is my understanding.
Calvinists believe God programs us on a will level. Those of us who are meant to go to heaven will come to Him because He made our will to choose that. We feel like we choose freely, but there is no possibility that we ever would have chosen differently. Same with people who choose against God.
Some Calvinists believe God actively wants some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. Others believe He chooses some for heaven and passes over others, who go to hell.
These are some of the reasons I have chosen not to be Calvinist.
If someone feels that I have misrepresented Calvinist beliefs, please feel free to correct me.
The Calvinist belief boils down to this. God has purposely created millions of people that he will judge with eternal punishment with absolutely no chance of ever repenting because he doesn't love them enough to choose to save them.
Calvanism isn't a denomination it is a interpretive framework for understanding the Scriptures. Some denominations with Reformed tendencies are various Presbyterian, and Baptist churches with particular Baptist leanings. One famous modern Calvanist is John Piper a Baptist pastor. Check out the following link and check out this article by Pastor John.
Sincerely,Will Adaira master's student at a major Southern Baptist Seminary
@Will Adair - Great article, but it doesn't address the problem. Those people he talked about are not choosing against God freely. According to Calvinism, God is forcing them to choose against them and then punishing them for what He made them do.
Being a calvinist here is how I see it, Man does have free will but that will is bound to the state in which our hearts are bound. If God by his grace he chooses to open our hearts to hear the gospel, our wills, will automatically choose him, if God in his infinite wisdom chooses not to change our hearts, they remain hard to the gospel and therefore our will remains hardened towards Christ. Because we do believe some people are by God's will and infinite wisdom are predestined to heaven and hell does NOT mean that we do not witness to people or support missions, we believe that God does work through that to open people's hearts to the gospel, those who say all calvinists believe that witnessing to people or missions is wrong, is misinformed.
I'm going to have to leave this up to someone else. Obviously, by the third reply, someone had a bone to pick without actually understanding the doctrines they're railing against. It will obviously be a wasted effort trying to debate it with people like that.
As for free will,
"The Bondage of the Will"
or
"The Freedom of the Will"
Read about it by scholars who know a lot more about this than people on the Internet. Enjoy.
@musterion99@xanga - Please tell me you're not a Calvinist.
(If not, I think the point of this was to get intelligent Calvinists to answer and then interact with them about it. If so... I can't finish the "if so" sentence because my mind is boggled.)
From how I understand the question and what I have studied of Calvinism, free will does not play a part or even become a factor within this theology. It does not exist, for man has no choice in whom he/she will worship and where they will go when they die. I'm not entirely sure about every day activities, but I would imagine that with this logicality, the ability to have free will is greatly diminished if not stamped out.
This theology greatly disturbs me and after lots of research I firmly disagree. So there's my two cents.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I don't think that's correct (in the nicest way possible lol). Calvinists believe we are ALL born with a fallen sin nature. We are ALL dead in sin, and everyone's will is subject to that. However, those whom God has predestined, He intervenes in their lives. He makes them come alive (in the same way that a dead man cannot make himself come alive even if you tell him how to do it, someone else has to bring him to life, because he is dead). God basically opens a person's eyes and they then run to Him. They then see their own brokenness and run to Him and His grace. And in their gratitude, they want to live for Him and will NEVER stop living for Him.
I think what you're saying is that God creates some people with the desire to find Him, while others have the desire to disobey Him. But Calvinism teaches that we are all born with a desire to disobey and ignore Him. But with some people, God comes in and enlightens them to the truth of sin, and they then want to live in His grace.
Free will teaches that we are only wounded from sin, so we have the ability to do something good that will give us salvation (aka choosing the Gospel). Predestination teaches that no one can save themselves, only The Holy Spirit choosing to enlighten someone to the truth (because of His grace) will save someone.
Free will: "I am saved because I figured out the truth and chose to live in it, and I am a little bit worthy of it because I chose it."Predestination: "I am saved because God chose to show me the truth and give me a desire to do His work even though I am unworthy."
I became a Calvinist because I think that scripture teaches predestination. The Bible calls Christian "chosen" "the elect" "God's chosen people". The Bible also says we are predestined long before the foundations of the earth. And I'm going to stop here because I could write a book on this if I wanted.
Just keep in mind that predestination implies much more than simply the God chose us. What does it tell you of God's character? Do you not like it because it is uncomfortable to believe? Or do you not believe it because you really don't think Scripture teaches it?
Also, why does no one seem to have a problem with God choosing Israel as His people through Abraham, but they seem to have a huge problem with God choosing His people through Christ?
@SWAurora@xanga - I agree
@Strong_Protector@xanga - why does xanga ALWAYS reformat what I write?!?!?
@Strong_Protector@xanga - I don't think Scripture teaches it, not in the way Calvinists use the term. I believe in predestination-that God predestined everyone who would freely choose Him of their own free will. I believe in the Arminian concept of prevenient grace, which is the idea that we are all fallen, but that God gives grace to everyone that enables them to choose Him if they want to do so.
I believe the difference in what you're saying and what I said is almost completely semantic. I mentioned that some Calvinists believe what you're saying, which is that God chooses some and passes over others.
I believe it comes down to the same thing. Some people never have a chance to be saved, while others cannot not be saved. I do not believe that is Scriptural or that it works with God's character.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
@BalletdBeth@xanga - You did really well at explaining.
Also... I don't think that Calvinism is really a denomination either... I mean... maybe. It's more like a theological belief. Because there are Reformed Baptists, Reformed Charismatics etc.
@Strong_Protector@xanga - I agree.
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - There are things I agree and disagree about with both Calvinists and Arminians.
All I can say is that there has to be a balence between "whomsoever will may come" and "chosen before the foundation of the world". Most often, people try to turn this into an either/or argument, when it should more be a both/and discussion. The bible discusses both of these, and presents them as true. On the one hand, there are many verses which propose that God predetermined those whom would be saved, but at the same time there are many verses which demonstrate personal responsibility for the choice to not believe in Christ. Are they both in complete contradiction, is God's word falsified on this point? The answer is invaribly, and undisputedly, no. In spite of this though, people often times feel they can disregard certain hard passages of scripture, whether for or against election/predestination or free will, in favor of their own personal view of how God "must be" and how He "must do" The work of salvation. This is wrong, as all scripture is inspired by God and is beneficial to our spiritual development.
So what should we do then? Before I answer this question let me first state this, as it is VITAL in the discussion of Free Will and Predestination/Election... The belief you hold on this particular point of scriputre is NOT necessary to be saved... I will repeat. No matter what you believe on this point, whichever position you hold, it will NOT affect your salvation in any way.
Now to the question, "what should we do?" We have to search the scriptures dilligently, taking the entire body of the word to compare it against itself. Then, only after a prayerful and serious study of God's word, make a decision as to how you will personally stand on this issue. Then after you have made this decision, leave room for God to move and change your perspective as you grow more aquainted with the passages over the years... Then, finally, NEVER let this issue become a source of contention or division between you and other believers. We are supposed to be unified in Christ, maybe not always in our perspective about the scripture, but we are supposed to be unified in our love for one another.
In the end, this issue will never be decided this side of heaven... and those who think they know how this works will most likely get to heaven and be like "Oh, duh, I'm sorry God! How could I have missed that?!?!" So, if its not going to be fully decided here, when you die do you really want God to bring up all the times you fought with, and got angry at, another believer for holding a different view than you? Think about it.
Grace and PeaceP.J.
*Extra note: Please do not presume to think that I am trying to support one view or another in this post, as I am not, and nor will I place my opinion on this issue in a public forum. Thank you for reading :)
@BalletdBeth@xanga - Man does have free will but that will is
bound to the state in which our hearts are bound. If God by his grace
he chooses to open our hearts to hear the gospel, our wills, will
automatically choose him
This is the typical double-talk that Calvinists will illogically use. How can man have freewill if we are automatically choosing?
Because we do believe some people are by
God's will and infinite wisdom are predestined to heaven and hell does
NOT mean that we do not witness to people or support missions
Why would you want to witness to people that God doesn't love and doesn't want to be saved? Again, a bunch of double-talk nonsense.
@Anti_Relativist@xanga - Very excellent response. Thank you for a good and timely reminder.
@Strong_Protector@xanga - Thanks for the discussion, by the way.
@SWAurora@xanga - From how I understand the question and what
I have studied of Calvinism, free will does not play a part or even
become a factor within this theology.
Then the only logical conclusion is that God is responsible for evil, which is absurd.
I have in some aspects studied calvinism in an attempt to understand both sides of the story;
Would I be correct in saying that SOME calvinists believe that the predestination consists of God knowing the end result of what our choices will be, but he does not actively enforce or change our free will?
I do not have many associations with people who believe this theology- and most of the resources that I have are extremely vague.
-Thanks
One thing I really don't like about Arminianism is that it relies on philosophies of what we think God should/shouldn't or could/couldn't do. Whereas Calvinism has very Biblical arguments.
Also, the "whosoever believeth in him" in John 3:16 does not say anything about predestination. It doesn't address whether people come to believe in Christ because God chooses them or because they choose God. However, the very same book later says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me(A)draws him; and I will (B)raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44).
@Strong_Protector@xanga -
Free will: "I am saved because I
figured out the truth and chose to live in it, and I am a little bit
worthy of it because I chose it."Predestination: "I am saved because
God chose to show me the truth and give me a desire to do His work even
though I am unworthy."
Those aren't the only two choices. The bible teaches that God must first draw us to himself and then he allows us to either receive or reject him.
I became a Calvinist because I think that scripture teaches predestination.
It teaches predestination according to God's foreknowledge of what he knows we will choose from the will he has created us with.
The Bible calls Christian "chosen" "the elect" "God's chosen people".
Again, in I Peter 1:2, God says we are elect according to his foreknowledge. Israel and the Jews were God's chosen people but not every Jew is saved and going to heaven.
The Bible also says we are predestined long before the foundations of the earth.
What does it say we are predestined to? In Romans 8, it says we (Christians that are already saved) are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.
Just keep in mind that predestination
implies much more than simply the God chose us. What does it tell you
of God's character? Do you not like it because it is uncomfortable to
believe?
No, because the Calvinist view is nonsense. Go back and read my first comment on this post.
Or do you not believe it because you really don't think Scripture teaches it?
The bible teaches predestination but not according to what Calvinists teach.
Also, why does no one seem to have a problem
with God choosing Israel as His people through Abraham, but they seem
to have a huge problem with God choosing His people through Christ?
And again I'll repeat what I already said. Israel and the Jews were God's chosen people but not every Jew is saved and going to heaven.