Guest post by figachewy (note: This post, written from an atheist perspective, questions the belief of God sacrificing his only son. We feature this not to discourage, but to promote discussion on why Christians believe what we believe.)Don't read my entry if you are a devout Christian. You'll probably get annoyed.
So what did I see on the front page of Xanga yesterday? A Xanga entry/preach blog entitled "
The Most Controversial Post I Have Ever Written" stating that the consequences of not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is eternal damnation. I have heard this message before, many times, but it's usually in a different venue: people knock on my your door, talk about God with me and then give me some Bible comics. I guess even Christianity recruiting has met the 21st century.
I'm an atheist though, so it's not within the confines of my religion to pay much mind to those views. People might think atheism is just a default view or something not to be taken seriously, but I am a devout Atheist: I live knowing the world around me is what it is and that higher powers do not exist.
So here's something I've always thought peculiar about God sacrificing His "only begotten son" and using that as a measure to how much he loves mankind:
Is this the same as a mortal sacrificing his/her child? (Bear with me and the technics). A mother's love is different from a father's love; a mother has to carry her child for 9 months, all while feeding and singing to the little blastocyst inside her. In the process, the mother gains an intimate relationship toward her child that no amount of playing catch with dad can parallel.
God was never pregnant nor did He raise Jesus from baby to man. Furthermore, God, being omniscient, would know that after Jesus' death, Jesus would return to Heaven, where He resides. In essence, it's a family reunion upon Jesus' death. For many parents whose kids passed away in events such as the Gaza conflict or due to feeding their kids contaminated milk or have lost their kids during their military service, they do not have quite the same solace as knowing if they will indeed see their kids in Heaven. For these reasons, I am highly skeptical of the hypothetical God who sacrificed his only begotten son.
Comments (338)
Me too. High five!
I love that the disclaimer says this post is to promote discussion, and the first line of the post proper is "Don't read this if you're a devout Christian." Kind of makes genuine discussion difficult.
But ignoring those two things, I think the points are largely valid. This is a real problem with the way we present the gospel. I think a real response would both run longer than the post and require some of the technical details OP asked us to spare him, but my contribution to the discussion is this: the relationship between God and Christ reveals the truer, deeper, more metaphysical nature of sonship, of which biological sonship is an image and echo.
-NDSR
In sacrificing Jesus, God sent Him to be tortured in ways no one has ever been tortured before because He carried the weight of every single evil thing that has ever been done. It wasn't just a death; it was the most perfect being who ever lived taking on every evil in the whole world.
It's like this: Your neighbor's child has cancer and needs chemo. Instead, your child has to have it in their place or they will die. You may know your child will live through it, but would you be willing to make them suffer that? Furthermore, while they're going through it, you won't be allowed to touch or even look at them.
What God sent Jesus to do was infinitely more painful and unbearable, and God the Father was forced to be separate from Him and could not comfort Him.
You say this, as though you are not a parent. I am not either, but i can only imagine how painful it must be to watch your child suffer the worst possible suffering you can imagine (and beyond) and do nothing about it because you know it has to be done to save the world.
You see, while Christ's death came at a time where suffering was at it's utmost high (trust me, "The Passion of the Christ" didn't go far enough with how much physical pain Christ went through) the TRUE suffering was taking every single sin that has ever or ever will exist upon Himself. You have to have something in your life you have done to someone else which causes you pain. Something that gnaws at you. Something that you cannot let go. Whether you admit it or not, you have something in your life you feel incredibly guilty for.
Now imagine taking that guilt, every bit of it, but from every single person upon yourself. That's a suffering beyond any suffering you or anyone else can possibly imagine - and far beyond any physical pain.
That's the suffering Christ took on for you and me... two people who truly don't deserve it.
So, when you become a parent, if you're not already, i promise you that you will see this in an entirely new light. Whether a father or a mother, that pain is unbearable... and we can only imagine a limited amount of pain. No way on earth can we truly imagine the pain Christ endured.
God bless.
I HAD TO RESPOND to this post...
I lost my dad about 3 years ago... and i find it interesting this person thinks they know the "solace" a person has when something like this happens. I know God exists because of my reaction to his death. I did not cry, I was chosen to be my familys strength. I actually got my bible and opened it and "coincidently" stopped on readings that gave solace towards death and what it means. I actually kept reading and compiled all the readings about heaven and earth and death and helped my mom who had one of the roughest reactions to this.
I am no saint... I took my mom to court and called the police on her when i was a teen. I was a tough one. But this situation brought us closer, as well as my father closer.
My "solace" was different from the cliched "solace" this person is talking about. And i wasnt very devout at that time either. God suffered for his son because of the pain he went through, its the same suffering a parent has when theyre child is sick although they will STILL LIVE AFTERWARDS. Ask any parent how they feel when theyre child goes through their first fall, or their first cough, or their first puke... appendicitis... tonsils... etc..
its very interesting how this person defines pain and solace... and i sense a lot of pain that needs to be resolved within them...
Jesus was down with the plan, which is one reason why it wasn't the same as sacrificing a human child.
Your claim that you know that higher powers do not exist is an impossible claim. If God has the power to hide himself in the furthest corner of the galaxy, you would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to know he doesn't exist. However, if you were, you would be God. In general, it's usually impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove that unicorns don't exist. You can't prove that I've never been to New York. You can't prove that God doesn't exist. That's obviously not to say that he does exist, but it is to say that you should be more careful with your knowledge claims.
“Devout” is an interesting word, but I am not at all annoyed by your post. Most devout Christians I know follow very little of what the Bible actually teaches. Instead they follow the interpretations of men, wherein the scriptures are chosen which support their opinions, and the rest are ignored. They build up for themselves a nice little set of beliefs, just enough to get them by without ever asking God if there is more. But I have to smile now, because if I point the mirror at myself others might judge me the same way.
However, the real point is that in the beginning I believed because those I loved taught me that it was so. Now, I know God and am known of Him, because I have experimented on the promises, I have studied and asked Him, and He has revealed Himself to me. It’s not really so strange. Jesus said we could know Him. He also said we could be perfect like Him, or in other words, grow up to be like Him. When you have that kind of assurance, His plan of happiness becomes such a part of you that it’s as natural as breathing.
In short, God is not limited by time. He knew he would come back. But since time is not a progression for him, the even of his son's death has no reason to be in the past. Possibly, God experiences the pain of his son taking on all of the world's sins every moment of every day. It was also said that a father/son relationship is probably the best analogy we have, but is likely not as deep as the relationship actually is. We're talking about a godhead, three in one. His son is, in essence, part of him. So it would hurt a lot more than we're imagining, and it would be sacrifice because he faces the pain eternally.
@Theophilus166@xanga - That's obviously not to say that he does exist, but it is to say that you should be more careful with your knowledge claims.
You are incorrect, sir.
God's existance is not taken as an isolated question. Modern Christianity is a collection of beliefs-- not only is it taken that God exists, but also that the sum narraitive of the Bible is true.
While I can't look for unicorns under every rock, I can make more definitive commentary if the unicorn was claimed to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics and so forth.
@Pickwick12@xanga - In sacrificing Jesus, God sent Him to be tortured in ways no one has ever been tortured before because He carried the weight of every single evil thing...
Curious, isn't it?
A God with the forsight of prophecy and with the power of creation chose a solution so inconvinent to himself. Modern Christianity takes God as all-powerful. If God willed it, he could have rid himself of eartlhy sin with a dance and a twirl-- yet in his infinite wisdom, he torutred himself!
Or rather, God could have solved the problem at its root: Spank Adam and Eve for their intended transgressions.
@huginn@xanga - but God, if He exists, is by definition outside the physical world. After all, if God is the creator of the universe, he obviously would have to be outside of it in order to create it. The laws of thermodynamics (and all natural laws) would be irrelevant. If people claimed that God was physical and existed within the physical world, perhaps those methods would be useful.
@Theophilus166@xanga - but God, if He exists, is by definition outside the physical world.
By the way, Odin in Vahalla and Zeus in Mount Olympus each say hi. See, they're outside the physical world and have conviently hidden themselves in metaphyiscal realms.
If people claimed that God was physical and existed within the physical world, perhaps those methods would be useful.
That's the story; but at some point, he in time or space, interfaces with the phsyical world. In this, we can inspect and conclude.
In short, this is my position: The Bible as natural and anthropological history is bullshit, and therefore, God is very very very unlikely to exist.
Good point. I've never thought about it that way.
@daneeyul@xanga - His son is, in essence, part of him. So it would hurt a lot more than we're imagining, and it would be sacrifice because he faces the pain eternally.
God had it in him to sacrifice his own son. His apathy, in the Jewish Holocaust, was really something to bear.
Jesus Christ, God, and Holy Spirit stood by in passive indifference as millions upon millions of his chosen people were gased, shot, and worked to death by Hitler and his Nazi goons.
@Theophilus166@xanga - "but God, if He exists, is by definition
outside the physical world. After all, if God is the creator of the
universe, he obviously would have to be outside of it in order to
create it."
Does that mean a person has to have an out-of-body experience for their body to create a tumour?
Salvation history helps a great deal in understanding the sacrifice of Jesus.
Jesus is the Lamb of God. That means he was a Passover sacrifice. The original Passover saw the Jews smearing lambs' blood on their door posts. This was a sign to the angel of death to pass over these homes.
Jesus' blood was smeared on the Cross as a sign that death would pass over all of mankind. Jesus brought eternal life to mankind once again. Eternal life had been lost by the Original Sin of Adam and Eve.
So the sacrifice of Jesus is glorious.
@LoBornlite@xanga - Why was God subject to his own rules of sacrifice and devotion? Isn't God big enough and great enough to rewrite or outright null the rules?
@huginn@xanga - Jesus Christ, God, and Holy Spirit stood by in passive indifference as millions upon millions of his chosen people were gased, shot, and worked to death by Hitler and his Nazi goons.
This is not true. From your point of view as an atheist, since you deny God's existence and know him not, you are incapable of assigning an attribute or attitude like apathy to him. Calling something that you do not know and deny exists anything at all is senseless.
From the real world point of view, the United States along with its allies rose up and smashed Imperial Japan and NAZI Germany to pieces. This is hardly a sign of apathy.
From the Bible we learn that God works through people.
@LoBornlite@xanga - This is not true. From your point of view as an atheist, since you deny God's existence and know him not, you are incapable of assigning an attribute or attitude like apathy to him.
Knowledge of God is accessible to me as it is to you. I can read the Bible as easily as you can.
Calling something that you do not know and deny exists anything at all is senseless.
From Zeus' many girlfriends, I can describe him as a horny God. But this doesn't mean I'm a pagan.
From the real world point of view, the United States along with its allies rose up and smashed Imperial Japan and NAZI Germany to pieces.
A decade too late. Along the way 6,000,000+ Jews died. In the war 50,000,000+ civilians and compatants died. By war's end, scores of millions of people died.
All powerful, all knowing, and all good, God could have snipped evil in its bud. In his inaction-- in his apparent apathy-- he let that flower bloom fully.
From the Bible we learn that God works through people.
From the Bible, we know that God intervenes with messages, influence, and miracles as he wills it. From the Bible, we know that God isn't a deistic clockmaker.
@huginn@xanga - Why was God subject to his own rules of sacrifice and devotion?
God's rules are for us. Since Jesus was God in the flesh he became subject to all rules governing the flesh.
And that is the whole point of the Incarnation.
I'm unsure of your point here. To take a guess, are you saying that if God knows that he will live again after his death, his sacrifice is void? I'm not sure that follows. A rich man pays a hefty debt and remains rich. Does that mean that he hasn't paid any debt? It may be said that he ultimately does not suffer for a long time, but that doesn't change the amount he paid. Similarily, it's besides the point of whether God knew he would live again or not to the value of his sacrifice. The value of his sacrifice is in his taking the penalty for our sins upon himself, and however easy or hard it was, it was a sacrifice that we ought to have paid, and so demonstrates his undeserved love for us.
Thank you for the question though; I appreciate your conversational tone.
@huginn@xanga - Knowledge of God is accessible to me as it is to you. I can read the Bible as easily as you can.
True. But if you deny the existence of God, reading the Bible is senseless.
I think you missed the whole point of God sacrificing his son. It was to pay the penalty for our sins so that we can have eternal fellowship with him. God foreknowing that Jesus would be in heaven is a red herring. Jesus still suffered and was crucified. If you want to be an atheist, that's fine, but you're post misses the mark and is a weak argument against Christianity. God doesn't compare what Jesus did on the cross to what humans do.
@huginn@xanga - A decade too late.
Your original complaint was apathy. Tardiness is not apathy. And particularly not in this case.
@LoBornlite@xanga - Gorgeous cop-out.
In selectivly answering a peripheral support-point, you've neglected my substanative and complete rebuttal of your position.