"Human nature is not nearly as bad as it has been thought to be." - Abraham Maslow

nice. ^_^b

Here's a comment for you. Enjoy it, for it is fleeting ;)

@misuriver@xanga - The biblical position is that all humans were made by God and for Him.  We would need Jesus even if we had never sinned.

But we did sin.  The Bible teaches that we inherited our sinful nature from the first human, who chose to rebel against God.  Being part of an individualistic culture, it is hard to grasp how another person's mistake can affect us so drastically, but I'm convinced it's true.  The first human's sin is not what condemns us, though.  Our personal sin is sufficient to do that. 

God does not desire us to be condemned, so He provided a way for us to be rescued -- trusting in Jesus.  It's not selfish for Him to make Jesus the only option.  We were made for Him, and only a divine person could be capable of restoring our relationship with God.

I think you're right about selfishness... Caring for yourself is not bad.  It's only selfish when you put yourself above others or above God.

Lots of truth, :) love it.

I have just been beating myself up this morning. Telling myself how I've gotten angry at so many people and told them off. That I was completely in the wrong. The reason for what I'm doing is that guilt is a symptom of depression. It's certainly what keeps us in check, but there's more.

There's free will and a DESIRE within your heart that comes solely from YOU to treat people right, reject selfish interests. I know some Buddhist men who don't chase selfish pursuits, in favor of giving almost all they've got to their family. I don't see that in even the most devout Christian men, forgive me for being jaded. I've spent so much of my life in the church, so I know what I'm talking about.

The reason many atheists say that practicing Christianity is a mental illness is because of the constant flagellation of self by Christians. Works, and I believe works, come first over faith for me. That's what I strive for as the meaning of my life.

Hanging around in church, congregating with other guilt-burdened people is a waste of ferventcy. Go spend your money helping the despairing humans who live among us every day because they can't afford or are too ill to gain the essentials of life, instead of tithing your hard earned money to pay the huge churches' in America light bills.

Gandhi once said that he liked our Christ, but he did not like our Christians, because they were nothing like our Christ. It was in the movie about him that a man came to him and said "I am in Hell. I am Hindu, and I killed a Muslim boy." Gandhi said "I know a way out of Hell. Find a Muslim boy and raise him as your own. But raise him in the Muslim faith".

Works, my friend. If you go through some poverty, illness, desperate need yourself as I have, your eyes will be opened.

saying that wickedness is necessary for salvation to exist is like saying that people must sin, as a very consequence of birth. so based on this, the fact that you believe salvation DOES exist means that wickedness MUST exist and is the prelude to the presence of salvation in the first place. but if sin MUST exist then humans have no choice in the matter of whether or not they commit it, and god has therefore created something imperfect, an act that implies he himself cannot be perfect (and one could take this further and question the motivation of god for making an inherently sinful humankind, because that would look an awful lot like some sort of set-up by a greedy, worship-hungry deity. say good-bye to the concept of free will.)

the idea of "sufficient to stand but free to fall"? not according to this blogger's logic.

@AllMyNamesAreTaken@xanga -  Thanks. It's just so hard sometimes.

@jupiter312@xanga - Right on!

"thanks for sharing all that info!  I am beginning to see your position has much merit. My initial response is unravelling under scrutiny.  I am wondering now, did Jesus really intend for us to be able to attain a state of selflessness? Is such a thing truly possible?"

I've been spending years thinking carefully about these issues.

"

That's sad about Mother Teresa ... I didn't know.  More hypocrisy within the church ... but I can understand her drive to press forward with her mission, believing as Catholics do that their 'works' are earning their salvation.  Never quite knowing, of course, how many mouths you need to feed or brows you need to wipe before you've 'earned' that spot in heaven.  :(  Thus, her confession that she knew nothing but emptiness and coldness ... very sad.)"

That's the thing about popular myths.  99% of the time, they're just completely taken for granted.

"I did some research ...

Luke 9:23 (Young's Literal Translation)

And He said
unto all, `If any one doth will to come after Me, let him disown
himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

Excellent.

"Many versions translate 'disown himself' as 'deny' or 'forget about' or 'turn from' our selfish ways.  They seem to mean the same thing -  to turn away from what our selfish nature dictates and attempt to rise above it, to do what is abnormal and exceedingly difficult for all of us - to set aside our ego and self-preservation for a few moments and consider someone else! Jesus asks us to disown ourselves, but I'm starting to question His motive."

I would propose that there is a subtle, but important difference between "disown himself" and "become selfless."  Here is the verse in context:

20and he said to them, `And ye -- who do ye say me to be?' and Peter answering said, `The Christ of God.'

 21And having charged them, he commanded [them] to say this to no one,

 22saying -- `It behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and the third day to be raised.'

 23And he said unto all, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me;

 24for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake, he shall save it;

 25for what is a man profited, having gained the whole world, and having lost or having forfeited himself?

As far as I can tell, what He's saying here is that to accept Christ is to reject the evil social structure that was to reject and destroy Him (in order to maintain the deeply flawed status quo).  Therefore, to be true to oneself carries a dire price -- rejection by society at large, persecution, and even martyrdom.  So to accept Christ as He truly Is is to disown oneself.  But far from being an act of selflessness, it is the ultimate act of selfish spiritual strength:

"whoever may lose his life for my sake, he shall save it; for what is a man profited, having gained the whole world, and having lost or having forfeited himself?"

If you reject truth in fear for the sake of social acceptance, then you reject yourself.

So in this context, Jesus is not admonishing us to be selfless, but rather the opposite.  Jesus is saying that to be a follower of Him, we must courageous, strong, truthful, and yes, selfish.

"In preparing my response, I was thinking of people who attain this victory over selfishness - never a consummate victory but a temporary one, small things - a mother's sacrifice of sleep when her child has a fever ..."

An act of love.  Love is response to the embodiment of personal values, and as such is the most profoundly selfish thing in the world.

"a man's sacrifice of his personal safety when faced with an emergency situation ..."

Angry defiance of death.  It's a rush, let me tell you.

"taking the broken piece, offering someone else the better one, returning the overpayment ... these acts do occur daily."

This constitutes a personal decision between goods and friendship/personal integrity (both of which contribute to self-respect (it is a weak and small person who is happier with money than with genuine friendship and self-respect)).

"However, when we do manage to do some small selfless thing, we immediately desire acknowledgement, making sure everyone knows of our sacrifices and then basking in praise for our selfless acts." 

Weakness.  It is lack of self-esteem that compels us to receive recognition from others.

"In brief, we SUCK!" 

If your standard of virtue is living a contradiction, we will always suck.  This is a dead end.  Taken to extremes, it can lead to suicide attempts.

"And I think that is Jesus' motive for asking us to try to disown ourselves ... because we tend to think we're pretty hot shit and we need to be constantly reminded we're not.  When we think we can earn His approval, we are way off track!"

Hubris is weakness, not selfishness.

"The very essence of following Christ requires that we remind ourselves of our littleness, our failures, our lack of strength - every day.  (for these reveal our need for Him!)"  

So long as this is reality check -- not self-flagellation, this is selfish, good, and healthy.  The focus should be to grow further spiritually, soulishly and physically, not develop thoughts of worthlessness.

"I think it's pertinent that He concludes His command to 'disown ourself' with 'follow Me'.  Because when we find ourselves failing to be selfless, and start beating ourselves up, there is One who understands, forgives and offers grace and hope."

He doesn't judge us.  He does tell us where we need to be going, and He shows us the way.

"Your definition of sin is really interesting.  :)  I can see that you hold high standards for yourself." 

I don't always live up to them, but I'd like to think that is what I'm growing into.

"Although with the first definition, you'd first have to define 'truth' and 'reality', and that could take awhile!"

Simple.  Physical, concrete reality.  The unseen, "spiritual" reality is simply an aspect of physical reality.  We see only a fraction of what's out there.  The universe is big enough for God, Satan, Heaven, Hell, and everything else the Bible describes. (see String Theory)

"It is certainly commendable to refrain from harming others, and to do the most with what we've been given.  But I am flipping your definition to see what sin is NOT.   It seems your definition implies that, if we know what it takes to become a better person, and do it - and if we don't cheat, kill or steal, we are no longer sinning.  How good is 'good enough', though?  I think back to Mother Teresa ... she didn't kill or steal and even went as far as trying to save lives and serve the poor ... yet she still wasn't sure God loved her. And this is the problem with any type of 'performance based' theology - it simply doesn't reveal God to us.  It keeps us striving in our own efforts." 

Mother Teresa lived by a "rules" based morality (i.e. she considered goodness to be based on living by a set of rituals and rules, without logical evaluation).  I live by a "reason" based morality (i.e. I live by accepting moral principles that follow necessarilly from my worldview, which I constantly reevaluate based on newly discovered information).

"In my experience, we find God when we fail,  when we fall at His feet in the awareness of our failures. So, you may 'succeed' according to your standards, to be a 'good' person ... but this may not give you the solid hope of eternity, or the deep knowledge that He loves you  ... for only failing, admitting our failure and experiencing His grace seems to provide that assurance.  That's been my experience, at any rate."

We all fail.  To be "perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect" requires infinite spiritual strength.  God does not merely expect us to "do," He expects us to "be."  This requires spiritual nourishment (immersion in scripture) and exercise (praise and prayer).  In this way, we constantly develop towards the nature of our Father.  When we die, if we have walked the narrow path of dilligence and strength, our sense of being is excellerated to the speed of light, which is infinity and eternity in existence (achieving light speed requires an infinite amount of energy, and the theory of relativity states that time stops at light speed), and we become what we were meant to be through instant infinite progression.  Otherwise, our souls decay and are destroyed ("fear not him who can destroy the body, but Him Who can destroy both body and soul").

"Thanks for the conversation!  I appreciate being corrected so thoughtfully.  :)"

It's mutual.  It's great to have someone address my ideas rather than hide behind maxims and run away.

thanks for this! *hug*

@elvinwei@xanga - oh wait, apparently it is a Bible verse. LOL shows how much i know