Monday, 08 December 2008
-
What Are Consequences? Who Decides If Something Is Bad?
Guest blog submitted by Jnnychriss
My friend and I were talking while at the beach and we had a discussion that has rocked my world a little bit. I have two questions for you.1. Do you believe consequences of sin are God-given punishments or natural repercussions of your actions? I'm talking about being a Christian. If we believe that He really does blot out our sins, that they are as far as the east is from the west, then does God really punish us? Or are all consequences for the sins that Christians do just natural repercussions?
2. Who decides if something is bad? For example: getting cancer, a young child dying or a horrible car wreck. In the human realm, we would call those horrible, despicable circumstances. But what if, from God's perspective, there is no bad? Every circumstance that occurs is to allowed to show His glory by working miracles, reaching people for His kingdom, teaching a lesson and growing faith? Isn't the eternal more important than the earthly?I would like to know what you think as I don't know how I feel about either of these two subjects.
-
recommend
- recs 0
-
share
-
email
- sent 0
Related Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
Comments (32)
Deep questions! I'm curious to see what others will write. In answer to your first question, I believe that God has punished our sin in Jesus. You're right - he does blot out our sins as far as the east is from the west. But- there are definitely natural consequences to our sin. If you have unprotected sex, you could get an STD - a punishment? perhaps not a divine one. A consequence? heck ya. If you drink and drive, and kill someone, the consequence (and punishment from the law) is jailtime. But I do wonder - does God "punish" nations for turning from Him? Are natural disasters God's judgment on us?
For your second question - wow. I'm not sure how to start thinking about that. I think everything happens for a reason. We have to believe that God's plan is GOOD. His Ways are higher than our ways - so while a young child dying is definitely bad in our eyes - in God's eyes it may not be. There is always a reason for what He does - with the ultimate end result being the furthering of His Kingdom.
Re: Question # 1: God has punished all the sins of believers in Jesus Christ on the cross; he does not punish our sins again. But God does discipline believers (Hebrews 12). Many of the consequences believers experience which we may consider so-called natural consequences are not just accidental/incidental because God is sovereign so He knows they will happen and allows them to happen.
God uses all things in the lives of believers for good, to conform us to the image of Christ. He allows trials, if need be, to refine and try our faith. The difficulties believers experience are working a far eternal weight of glory (Romans 8:28; I Peter 1:6-9; I Cor. 4) and so forth.
Re: Question # 2: I don't think I like the question "Who decides if something is bad?" I think better questions to ask are:
Does God continue to care for the believer no matter what happens, even when bad things happen? (yes)
Does God have a purpose for believers no matter what happens, even when bad things happen to believers? (yes)
(For example, please see Romans 8:18-39; Genesis 50:20; Heb. 13:5; Isaiah 43, 49:14-16.)
We have to remember that God's ultimate purpose is to bring glory to Himself, that His Son Jesus might have the preeminence and that His children might bring Him glory. Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:18; Isaiah 43:7, 21.
If we keep this is mind, when we look at what we might consider bad things, as believers we can trust Him even when things don't make sense to us (e.g.-think of the story of Joseph in Genesis and Lazarus). God has a greater plan and purpose beyond what we can see or often understand since His ways are higher than ours and His perfect plan will not be thwarted. God will accomplish all His purposes. Job 42:2, Isaiah 46:10.
God tells us to trust in Him and lean not on our own understanding. Things don't make sense to us when we're in the middle of tragedy and heartbreak and it seems the whole world is falling apart, but God is still on the throne in spite of what we may see. That's what faith is all about. Hebrews 11.
I blogged on some of this a while back here.
1.) natural consequence
2.) natural consequence
"There is nothing either good or
bad, but
thinking makes it so." ~ William Shakespeare
It's all in how you look at
things. We humans have decided what's "good" and what's "bad". But we
don't always come to a consensus.
We also reap what we sow. You call it
"natural repercussions". I call it karma.
Do you believe consequences of sin are God-given punishments or natural repercussions of your actions?
It can be either or both.
does God really punish us?
Sometimes he does. Hebrews 12:6-11`
But what if, from God's perspective, there is no bad? Every circumstance that occurs is to allowed to show His glory
I think that is ridiculous. If a child is molested, it was God's will? No, it was the will of an evil person. Just because God allows people to do evil does not mean that he is the author of evil.
My dad.
#2: I believe that what we consider "bad" most probably is considered "good" by God. Our definitions of "bad" and "good" are different from God's simply because our wisdom cannot match His, and our viewpoints can never match His either. He sees the beginning and the end - he knows the past and the future. All we can see is the present, and if we still remember it, the past. Thus I prefer to be optimistic about things and remember that God is in control of EVERYTHING - the good and what I consider bad.
The above comment is bullshit. "Our wisdom pales in comparison to God" shit.
I decide what is good and bad for myself based on accurate perceptions of reality and predicted consequences.
Well, for the first one, I think that God does punish us. I believe that, as when David committed adultery with Bathsheba, that He punishes us justly and correctly. But, I believe that He punishes us as loving parents do and does it BECAUSE He loves us and to teach us.
For the second I also believe that God determines what is bad. Yes, He created everything to be good, but it is us who misuse it and make it bad. Sex was meant for good and is a beautiful thing, but because we abuse it, we defile the goodness in God's creating it. That is why the Holy Spirit and His work through conviction is so important in our lives. AS when Jesus is talking to Peter and tells Him to follow Him and do what He says, Peter protests and asks, "What about the others?" Jesus simply tells him to not worry about them, but only worry about doing as He has asked Him. I believe it is the same way. God, through the Holy Spirit, convicts and instructs us of the things we are to do and it is not our job to question why, at times, we might be the only ones doing it.
i feel that any consequences (good or bad) are God-given.
and to determine whats good and bad, we have the bible for that.
From what i have learnt in my walk with God, is that every sin we commit has to bear a consequence whether or not it is punished duly by the law or by Him as the bible says, 'No guilt goes unpunished'.
There are certain things that He does not plan to happen, for example car accidents but when they do happen, He makes them right to complete His purpose in whatever way.
I'm glad you posted this. Your second question hits home with me because of some things I'm dealing with. I tend to be idealistic and when things aren't "perfect" it rocks my world. Also, when I hear the news and all the horrible things that are happening it really gets to me. I appreciate you thinking about this and reminding me that "he is working all things for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28) I agree that there are natural consequences to our actions and we should accept them with a good attitude instead of being angry and trying to blame it on someone else or on our circumstances. We should also try to see things from God's perspective, as you said, and realize that while something is heartbreaking and sad that if we see things from an eternal perspective that it will all work out for the best in the end.
@musterion99@xanga -
"If a child is molested, it was God's will?
No, it was the will of an evil person. Just because God allows people
to do evil does not mean that he is the author of evil."
God is omniscient, present and potent, right? So back X years, when God created the Universe, God would have known that in creating the Universe that Little Joey would have been molested by Old Man Corruthers, and he would have known that that event would be a direct result of the creation of the universe (otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient) -- so couldn't it be said that that was indeed part of God's plan, and thus God's will?
If you believe Jesus died on the cross for you, then God does not punish you for your sins. When Jesus hung on the cross as an offering for sin, He took all the punishment for all your sins. Believers are now under no condemnation for our sins. Our sins were already punished in Christ. God does not punish us again for our sins. That would mean Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and inadequate to save us. "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures..."
I Peter 2:24: He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
(See also Hebrews 9:28; 10:12.)
However, we do need to be confessing our sins, which is what John reminds us of in I John 1 and that is why God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness because Christ already died for our sins once for all; He is our Advocate, the propitiation, the atonement for our sins. See I John 1:5-2:2.
@Sir_Bissel@xanga - No, this is a common mistake that some make. They confuse and try to make God's foreknowledge and predestination synonymous, when they are two completely different things. Just because God foreknows what will happen does not necessarily mean that he predestined it. It's true that God does predestine certain things such as Jesus dying on the cross, but he doesn't predestine everything. If he did, that would make him responsible for evil and our sin, which would be not only contradictory but impossible if God is who the bible says he is.
@musterion99@xanga - Right, just because he knows doesn't mean he predestined it. It's because he's all knowing and all powerful that means he did. He would have the opportunity, for instance, when OMC was 12, to let him be crushed by the giant boulder, thus causing him not to be able to molest LJ.
However, if one is to say that given the free will OMC would have that he would be able to choose whether or not to molest, God would have known, from point X, that OMC would pick choice Molestation, otherwise God wouldn't be omniscient, because there would be something he wouldn't know-- what the outcome of the choice would be.
Also, if one were to say that he was testing OMC (Or LJ, for that matter) then it would have to be argued that LJ being molested would be part of his plan, because, again, he would have known the outcome of the test, and if there's something at another point that would require LJ to be molested (say LJ ends up growing up, finds some sort of virus that causes people to molest others, and creates a vaccine for said virus) -- which I'm assuming would end up being chalked up to God's Plan/God's Will. So would it be fair to say that God's Plan/God's Will involved LJ finding the cure, but not him being molested?
@Sir_Bissel@xanga - Right, just because he knows doesn't mean he predestined it. It's because he's all knowing and all powerful that means he did.
No, it doesn't. That's a false conclusion. That would apply to the things that he does predestine but not to the things he doesn't predestine.
He would have the opportunity, for
instance, when OMC was 12, to let him be crushed by the giant boulder,
thus causing him not to be able to molest LJ.
That's a red herring in relation to what I said. Yes, God could do that but it has nothing to do with what I said.
However, if one is to say that given the
free will OMC would have that he would be able to choose whether or not
to molest, God would have known, from point X, that OMC would pick
choice Molestation, otherwise God wouldn't be omniscient, because there
would be something he wouldn't know-- what the outcome of the choice
would be.
That's true but again it doesn't negate what I said.
Also, if one were to say that he was testing
OMC (Or LJ, for that matter) then it would have to be argued that LJ
being molested would be part of his plan, because, again, he would have
known the outcome of the test
That's an interesting way of stating it. Yes, that could be the case but again, that doesn't negate what I said. In context to #2 of this post, I said that God does predestine some things but not everything. Because of the responses you've made, you sound to me like you don't truly grasp what I've said. Maybe you do but not entirely.
So would it be fair to say that God's Plan/God's Will involved LJ finding the cure, but not him being molested?
Yes, that could be possible and lines up more with bible scripture, specifically Romans 8:28.
@musterion99@xanga - If not then it means you have a force that is as powerful as God out there. And if you've got that, then you've got multiple Gods, which doesn't quite fit with the whole monotheism thing.
If God knew, before creating the universe, that creating the universe in the manner that was done would create the point where Joey got molested, and God has an overarching plan for the universe, and he created the universe, not to mention the point that God could, at any point in time, alter the world so that Joey wasn't molested (be it where OMC was crushed by a boulder, or a tree fell on his car, or across the road, or he was running late for his Molestation Meeting because of a car accident on the freeway and ended up missing Joey by 10 minutes, because i'm assuming you'll allow for Old Testament God, where he's actively watching and doing stuff) then how can you say that Joey being molested isn't a part of that plan?
@Sir_Bissel@xanga - If not then it means you have a force that is as powerful as God out there.
What are you talking about? Another false premise.
If God knew, before creating the universe,
that creating the universe in the manner that was done would create the
point where Joey got molested, and God has an overarching plan for the
universe, and he created the universe, not to mention the point that
God could, at any point in time, alter the world so that Joey wasn't
molested (be it where OMC was crushed by a boulder, or a tree fell on
his car, or across the road, or he was running late for his Molestation
Meeting because of a car accident on the freeway and ended up missing
Joey by 10 minutes, because i'm assuming you'll allow for Old Testament
God, where he's actively watching and doing stuff) then how can you say
that Joey being molested isn't a part of that plan?
Once again you are using a hypothetical situation that doesn't negate what I said and further proves to show that you just don't grasp what I've said. I said God does predestine some things, but not everything. As I've said, you're confusing God's omniscience, omnipotence, and predestination and lumping them all together when it's not always necessary for them to be lumped together. I'll repeat what I've already said - "that would make God responsible for evil and
our sin, which would be not only be contradictory but impossible if God is
who the bible says he is." Here's something logical for you to think about if you want to understand this. God foreknew that Adam would sin. Correct? But God told Adam that it was his will for Adam to not eat from the tree. So, here we see God's will and plan was for Adam to not eat from the tree, yet God foreknew he would disobey him and eat it. Does this mean that Adam was more powerful than God? No, that's a false conclusion because God in his sovereign omnipotence made the choice to create Adam with a freewill to disobey him if he chose to. If you can't comprehend this, then there's not much more I can explain to you.
@musterion99@xanga - If God knew that Adam would eat it, then doesn't that mean that Adam could not not eat it, because if he did he would prove God wrong? I still don't see how there's free will there. Either God knows Adam will eat it, and Adam eats it, and thus God is omniscient, or God knows Adam will eat it, Adam doesn't eat it, and thus God is not omniscient. So does Adam have the ability to prove God wrong?
@Sir_Bissel@xanga - If God knew that Adam would eat it, then
doesn't that mean that Adam could not not eat it, because if he did he
would prove God wrong?
No, you're just failing to grasp the logics of this. It wasn't proving God wrong. It proved him right. He foreknew that Adam, using the freewill that he created him with, would eat it.
I still don't see how there's free will there.
I know you don't. You're confused like many people are when this is discussed. You're making conclusions without thoroughly thinking it through because to you, your conclusion sounds logical, even though it isn't. This reminds me of the problem of the 3 doors with a prize hidden behind one of the doors and where we need to figure out the odds of someone choosing the correct odds of choosing the right door. Almost everyone, including mathematics professors, get this wrong, because they aren't able to think it through logically. If you're not aware of what I'm referring to, here is the link.
Either God knows Adam will eat it, and Adam
eats it, and thus God is omniscient, or God knows Adam will eat it,
Adam doesn't eat it, and thus God is not omniscient.
There you go again. That is a false conclusion in saying that "or God knows Adam will eat it,
Adam doesn't eat it, and thus God is not omniscient."
As I've explained, God is omniscient because he knows Adam will not eat it. You're just not getting it.
So does Adam have the ability to prove God wrong?
*sigh* - to be honest, these kind of questions you keep asking because you don't comprehend it, is getting tiring to respond to.
@musterion99@xanga - " It wasn't proving God wrong. It proved him
right. He foreknew that Adam, using the freewill that he created him
with, would eat it."
Yes, it proved God right that he knew Adam would eat the apple, very good, you stated the obvious. Want a cookie?
Could Adam, then, have not eaten the apple, with God knowing that Adam would eat the apple?
There you go again. That is a false conclusion in saying that "or God knows Adam will eat it,
Adam doesn't eat it, and thus God is not omniscient."
As I've explained, God is omniscient because he knows Adam will not eat it. You're just not getting it.
It's either 1 or 0. Either God knows Adam will eat the apple, or God knows Adam will not eat the apple.
If God knows Adam will eat the apple, and Adam does indeed eat the apple, then God is right. (1)
If God knows that Adam will not eat the apple, and Adam does not eat the apple, then God is right. (1)
If God knows that Adam will eat the apple, and Adam does not eat the apple, then God is wrong. (0)
If God knows that Adam will not eat the apple, and Adam does eat the apple, then God is wrong. (0)
God cannot know that Adam will and will not eat the apple at the same time because there is only one outcome. That is, I could say "Either my horse will win or it won't." Me not knowing is part of what makes it so I'm not omniscient. To say that God is omniscient but also says "Either Adam will or he won't" is contradictory.
God, therefore, cannot know that Adam will not eat the apple if Adam does eat the apple, and as such either Adam can prove God wrong, or Adam has no choice.
1. God doesn't exactly punish us for our sins, but he does correct us with a loving hand. If we mess up, he wants us to recognize it and stray from the sin. We do see that God punished sinners in the OT for things like disobedience (remember that pillar of salt?) and such. Why would he stop now? Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, but we continue to mess up and continue to need his guiding hand.
2. Well, God does see evil. He obviously does because he recognizes and sees the sins that we commit and the presence of Satan and his demons. He sees bad but He also makes all things good, even if the evil resulted from our original sin and our free will. He allows us to do what we choose to, but He is capable of making everything work for His greater glory.
@Sir_Bissel@xanga -Yes, it proved God right that he knew Adam would eat the apple, very good, you stated the obvious. Want a cookie?
If you knew that, that why are you asking these silly questions?
Could Adam, then, have not eaten the apple, with God knowing that Adam would eat the apple?
Yes, he had the choice not to eat it but God foreknew that he would choose to eat it.
It's either 1 or 0. Either God knows Adam will eat the apple, or God knows Adam will not eat the apple.
No, if you go back and read what you said, I pointed out the flaw in your original statement on this. It's not merely what you stated above, it's the conclusions you made. I've explained over and over that God knew that Adam would eat it. Just because God foreknew it doesn't conclude that God predestined it or that Adam doesn't have freewill. Yes, what God foreknew Adam would choose, has to come to pass, but the mistake is to then conclude that Adam didn't have a choice, and this is where many people stumble because they are not able to logically think this through. It seems like Adam doesn't have a choice but he does. God's foreknowledge does not take the choice away. Here's the correct way of stating this. "Adam could only do what God foreknew that Adam would choose to do."
If Adam would have made a different choice, then God would also have foreknown that choice. But God knows the choice that will be made. What if God doesn't exist and there's no foreknowledge of the future? Would we be able to make choices? Yes, we would. So, just because God foreknows the choices we will make, does not logically conclude that we can't make a choice.
If God knows Adam will eat the apple, and Adam does indeed eat the apple, then God is right. (1)
If God knows that Adam will not eat the apple, and Adam does not eat the apple, then God is right. (1)
If God knows that Adam will eat the apple, and Adam does not eat the apple, then God is wrong. (0)
If God knows that Adam will not eat the apple, and Adam does eat the apple, then God is wrong.
Exactly, and I told you that the first one is right. "God knows Adam will eat the apple, and Adam does indeed eat the apple"
It's very simple. I don't know why you're stumbling over this.
God cannot know that Adam will and will not eat the apple at the same time because there is only one outcome.
That's a straw man. I never stated that. If Adam would have chose to not eat the apple, then God would also have foreknown that choice. But he knew that Adam would choose to eat it, and he was right.
To say that God is omniscient but also says "Either Adam will or he won't" is contradictory.
Another straw man because you fail to comprehend this. You're just stuck on your faulty reasoning and seemingly can't escape.
God, therefore, cannot know that Adam will
not eat the apple if Adam does eat the apple, and as such either Adam
can prove God wrong, or Adam has no choice.
STRAW MAN! I've never claimed that and it's not even a part of my argument. You keep resorting to these straw man statements because you do not comprehend the argument or logics of what I've said. Listen, my suggestion is for you to re-read slowly and contemplatively the things that I've said. At this point, it's rather fruitless to continue this unless you have a breakthrough in your understanding. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're just not getting it.
@musterion99@xanga - "If you knew that, that why are you asking these silly questions?"
Because that's not what I asked. You answered some random other question.
"Yes, he had the choice not to eat it but God foreknew that he would choose to eat it."
If God foreknew that he would choose to eat it, how would he have the opportunity to not eat it, unless God foreknew he would choose to not eat it? Rather, how is there a choice if there is one track that is plotted ever since the beginning of time, which you can't deviate because it's already known.
"Would we be able to make choices? Yes, we would."
Would we? Are you absolutely sure that the environmental and biological set up wouldn't have made the choices for you, where it would seem there's a choice, but based on your history and the history of everything else, there wasn't really a choice?
I never said you stated or claimed that, but at the same time, I don't think -you're- getting it.