Friday, 21 November 2008

  • Showdown: Christianity and Science in the College Classroom

    Guest post submitted by anonymous


    A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
     
    "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
     
    "Yes sir," the student says.
     
    "So you believe in God?"
     
    "Absolutely."
     
    "Is God good?"
     
    "Sure! God's good."
     
    "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
     
    "Yes."
     
    "Are you good or evil?"
     
    "The Bible says I'm evil."
     
    The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
     
    "Yes sir, I would."
     
    "So you're good...!"
     
    "I wouldn't say that."
     
    "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." 

    The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
     
    The student remains silent.
     
    "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
     
    "Er...yes," the student says.
     
    "Is Satan good?"
     
    The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
     
    "Then where does Satan come from?"
     
    The student falters. "From God."
     
    "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
     
    "Yes, sir."
     
    "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
     
    "Yes."
     
    "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
     
    Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
     
    The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
     
    "So who created them?"
     
    The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
     
    The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
     
    The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
     
    "No sir. I've never seen Him."
     
    "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
     
    "No, sir, I have not."
     
    "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
     
    "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
     
    "Yet you still believe in him?"
     
    "Yes."
     
    "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
     
    "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
     
    "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
     
    The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
     
    "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
     
    "And is there such a thing as cold?"
     
    "Yes, son, there's cold too."
     
    "No sir, there isn't."
     
    The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
     
    "Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
     
    Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
     
    "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
     
    "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
     
    "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.  In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
     
    The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
     
    "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
     
    The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
     
    "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.  It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.  Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
     
    "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
     
    "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
     
    The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
     
    "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
     
    The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
     
    "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
     
    The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
     
    "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.  So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
     
    Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
     
    Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
     
    "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
     
    Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
     
    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
     
    The professor sat down.

Comments (145)

  • LyricallyCharged@xanga

    Nice story.  Although there is strong evidence of both evolution and the professor's brain, but no evidence of God.  It's still a nice story.

  • huginn@xanga

    Argh.


    What about some originality, Mr. Anonymous poster?

  • huginn@xanga

    A three-step guide to show how this post is bullshit:


    1.) Copy/paste the entry into Microsoft Word
    2.) Control-"F", find all mentions of "God"
    3.) Replace God with "Odin and his merry band of deities"


    Voila! An argument for the existance of the Viking Gods. You can do the same for Allah, Zeus, or Vishnu.

  • moss_icon@xanga

    Nice story indeed. Though I seriously doubt it really happened. Firstly I doubt any university professor would be so unprofessional as to single out a student's beliefs for debate in class. And I'm sure if this (probably fictional) prof. existed a quick x-ray would reveal the presence of a brain!

  • no_more_grace@xanga
  • LyricallyCharged@xanga

    @moss_icon@xanga - I love that part.  No one has brain's because we've never smelt them before!  Bwuhahaha.  I love this place, it's funny.

  • sugartomyhoney@xanga

    @moss_icon@xanga - My guess is you don't know much about classrooms these days.  Teachers and professors do just that.

  • sugartomyhoney@xanga

    I think this is a great post and although I don't think it actually happened, I also don't think that is the point.

  • Beautiful_Disaster_74@xanga

    @moss_icon@xanga - Actually, I had a professor single me out in the second semester of my senior year for my religious and political beliefs (I'm a conservative Roman Catholic...and not a perfect example of either, but that's beside the point).  She finally decided that since I would not bend to the viewpoints she held as a liberal atheist, that I would not pass her class.  This decision to actively persecute me in an effort to "defeat" me was partly successful, I'm afraid, since it actually prevented me from graduating with my class.  I was able to march with my class, yes, but not get my degree with them.  So, yes, it does happen.  And when the professor in question is tenured, there is absolutely nothing that the university can do about it, even if it wants to do something about it. 


    Of course, I had the last laugh.  I found out about three years later that her husband divorced her, and the word through the grapevine was that he did it because she was so ruthless and overbearing. 

  • amishlovechild@xanga

    Wow... I died a little bit inside.

  • moss_icon@xanga

    @sugartomyhoney@xanga - @Beautiful_Disaster_74@xanga - well, colour me even more disillusioned in the behaviour of academics. Personally I'd expect serious disciplinary action and maybe, in Beautiful Disaster's case, a firing, if that happened.

    That wasn't my only reason for questioning the story's fictionality (is that even a word? No? It is now.) It reads like a story and doesn't really make any new points that most of us who've explored faith haven't encountered before. Science requires evidence. Faith requires.... well, faith. Neither are inherently and absolutely right and, IMHO, dismissing either due to the absense of the other is foolish.

  • sugartomyhoney@xanga
  • saxy_grrl@xanga

    That. Was. AWESOME. I am going to have to remember that one. Pure genius.

  • methodElevated@xanga

    Both arguments were flawed.

  • amishlovechild@xanga
  • lostintranscension@xanga

    I've read this so many times it's nauseating.


    @Beautiful_Disaster_74@xanga - Lovely story, but that's not true. Tenured teachers can be fired for misconduct, incompetence, or insubordination. They just can't be fired until they have a right to defend themselves. They defend themselves against an impartial hearing officer or a three member panel. Teachers are REGULARLY evaluated by administrators. If your story is true, then it's your fault you failed because you did not bring up the case to the school board. If they denied your claim, you take it above them until it WILL be heard. For something that you claimed to have taken place, it would have been heard at the beginning, because nobody wants the wrath of legions of religious people against them.

  • gardenblogger@xanga

    wow
    this is absolutely incredible
    I wish, I wish, I wish, I had this at the beginning of this semester. I would show this to everyone in my philosophy of religion and science class.

    man, I wish I could step up and have said something smart like that in front of my class.

    check out my latest essay for this class tho. based on aquinas 5 proofs for the existence of God if neone is interested in something like this.

    http://weblog.xanga.com/gardenblogger/683016343/outline-one-of-aquin.html

  • Beautiful_Disaster_74@xanga

    @lostintranscension@xanga - I would agree with you, except I went to a university that served the deaf and hard-of-hearing population.  Kind of a "one of a kind" type of place, if you know what I mean.  This professor was the hearing child of deaf parents, was fluent in sign language, and held a doctorate.  The sad reality is, there are not nearly enough people out there with a doctorate who are also fluent in American Sign Language AND want to teach AND want to live within commuting distance of this particular school AND...you get the idea.  I personally know of a number of professors there who have publicly ridiculed students, gotten sexually involved with students, you name it.  Because they are who they are or have the skill set they have, they'd almost have to rape or murder a student in order to be dismissed.  This is the same school where massive protests involving the majority of students have had to happen just to get the Board of Trustees to consider their concerns.  Granted, sometimes the student body has been woefully wrong, but they haven't even been able to get an audience to open up a dialogue with the administration without taking over the campus and shutting it down. 


    You can blame me all you want--I'm very good at taking the blame when I've legitimately screwed myself or someone else.  This just wasn't one of those times. 

  • sugarcoatedstacie@xanga

    @huginn@xanga - XD Exactly. I enjoy the back and fourth of atheism and religios people, it's too funny.


  • NaitoOfNarnia@xanga

    @LyricallyCharged@xanga - @huginn@xanga - @moss_icon@xanga - @moss_icon@xanga - @methodElevated@xanga - @amishlovechild@xanga - For anyone who wants someting that's more substancial. Give the videos a FULL watch. There IS real substance to the argument and it shows how science AND the Bible actually work together: http://blueletterbible.org/audio_video/hovind_kent/creation/creation_template.html

  • huginn@xanga

    @AmazinGuy@xanga - Dude, don't make me cry.


    There are Christians who make serious, intellectual inqury into theology and the origins of the earth. Kent Hovind is not one of them.


    Even the consevative AIG has repudiated many of Hovind's "arguments."


    I for one, am overjoyed, that Mr. Kent Hovind is rotting away in jail for tax evasion.

  • lostintranscension@xanga

    @Beautiful_Disaster_74@xanga - 


    A. There are plenty of schools that specialize in teaching to deaf students, and where state schools haven't been filling the need charter schools have, meaning that there ARE enough teachers who know what they're talking about and how to sign it.


    B. Just because they might not wanted to have her fired does not mean that they couldn't stop her from failing you "because you're Roman Catholic".


    C. What shool are you referring to?


    D. I will continue to blame you, because what you're talking about could constitute legal action.

  • NaitoOfNarnia@xanga

    @huginn@xanga - The fact that he broke tax laws has nothing to do with anything on this matter.
    And what is the "AIG". I'm not familiar with who or what that is.
    Either way, there IS proof that there is a God. Question is, are we willing to stop looking to our own thinking and actually look at what we have? NOT make guesses or assumptions, but actually take a look at the facts. Few of us ever do.

  • huginn@xanga

    @AmazinGuy@xanga - The fact that he broke tax laws has nothing to do with anything on this matter.


    Yeah, and I didn't further that tibit in criticism of Hovind's positions. It was just a tibit I threw out there.


    And what is the "AIG". I'm not familiar with who or what that is.


    "Answer in Genesis" Wiki. AIG Website.


    I think they're most famous for helping fund that Creationism Museum.


    Either way, there IS proof that there is a God. Question is, are we willing to stop looking to our own thinking and actually look at what we have? NOT make guesses or assumptions, but actually take a look at the facts...


    I'm not going to watch the video and hold myself to rebutting the entire thing. But I'm open to general discussion of science/religion. If you have a point to make, type it out yourself here and I'll rebut with an honest treatment of it.


    If you're witnessing to me on a personal level, you're probably wasting your time. I'm not encountering these sort of arguments for the first time.


    During my formative years, late in high school, and early in college, I considered Christianity. It was only when I found the evidence lacking that I slid from agnosticism to strong atheism.

  • lostintranscension@xanga
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