Maybe you've heard someone say these words... maybe you've said them yourself... "I believe in God, but I don't HAVE to go to church." "My spiritual life is between me and God." "I love God, but I hate organized religion."
Let me say right up front, and you friends know this, I am the Lead Pastor of a congregation of Christ-followers... so what do you expect my answer to be? 
Above are three statements, but I see them as one. But if I may, let me briefly address each thought... starting with the last one and working back.
"I love God, but I hate organized religion." First, I would love to invite you to our congregation - we're pretty disorganized. 
Seriously, though, when true religion is organized, it is organized according to the purpose of God - to bring grace, and peace, and understanding, and knowledge, and Love to people. Could it be that you're a lot like me, and what you don't like are dogmatic institutional rules which separate, and divide, and alienate people? The thing is, when religion is organized, there is unlimited potential for good!
"My spiritual life is between me and God." Yes, you are a spiritual being having a human experience, and how you relate to God is a personal thing. It really is not a separate thing, though. What I mean is, who we are spiritually - who we are beyond the body and the mind - affects every area of our lives. My spiritual life is between me and my wife - me and my son - me and my best friend - me and the girl working the checkout counter at Wal Mart - me and YOU! We are meant to live connected, and when I attempt to live a "this is between me and God" life, I am in serious disconnect.
"I believe in God, but I don't HAVE to go to church." I feel that the basis of this statement is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "church" is. Church isn't a building. Church isn't a place you "go to", or thing you "do", or something you "have." Church is a connectedness of people on a spiritual journey together. The thing is, my friends who say this to me, are themselves a part of a church. They may not attend a Christian worship gathering (or that of another religious faith), but they are a part of the church of intellectuals, or the church of politics, or the church of consumerism, or the church of Oprah, or the church of Starbucks. Everyone is a part of the church of whatever. Church is being connected... it is being.
Thoughts?
Comments (60)
@CyanideNGunpowder@xanga - Studious and strongly devout followers are the ones who do what God says because they have determined that it is the right thing to do.
You can't violate God's commandments and then call yourself studious and strongly devout. The young follow the rules because it is required of them. Adults follow the rules because they have determined the rightness of it. But the requirement still remains.
@choosenservant@xanga - No apology needed. The thought that I was supposed to be offended by something never crossed my mind. You seem like a very righteous man. It is an honor to benefit from your wisdom.
@LoBornlite@xanga - So reading your Bible, reflecting on its wisdom, meditation, open communication with God...you're throwing all of this out the window because you aren't with Biff in St. James Parish? It's still following the rules to keep the Sabbath holy and to honor God on that day.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to get some sleep for church in the morning. :) Goodnight, you've brought great points up tonight.
@CyanideNGunpowder@xanga - I didn't throw anything out the window. I'm just saying that clarity is very important. And one of the things that brings clarity is understanding the rules of the game.
btw, who's Biff?
@LoBornlite@xanga - LOL I am a happily married woman
and me too. It's 2:30 AM here. Good night!
@choosenservant@xanga - Well, I always say you can be a woman and still be righteous and wise! How embarrassing! Sorry about that!
@CyanideNGunpowder@xanga - the way I see it is, if you're going to do anything "because he said so" then it takes being a strong devoted follower- to obey is better than sacrifice.
As for the whole idea of church and what it is, I think basically like many posters have already stated, church= people, not church= building. However, while the church is the followers of Jesus, I still think we should make it a point to meet together as church. Not do like for example, as my sister suggested when I was a dancer, that dance lessons would suffice for the wednesday night bible study that I was skipping.
@LoBornlite@xanga - honesly though it does not say that you have to go to church to honour it, nor does it say that you have to go to church on sunday. and for you nit pickers, start going to church on saturday because that is the day that was origninally the day of rest.
Its not about going to a particular church, its about being with Christians. In the new testament, immediantly following pentacost they would meet in eachothers homes every day and fellowship with what God was doing with them that day. it was a time when they would discuss God, and how he was moving in their life. The word translated for church actually means (mob) or (a group) it was not church as we know it now, that is a distortion of what God really wanted. that is one of the main reasons we have problems in Christianity today. No longer do we get together and fellowship, we get together to hear one mans interpretation of what God is doing. We quit (for the most part i know not ALL Christians are like this) having personal responsobility for our own growth, we expect the pastor to make us grow. we have quit (for the most part like i said i know not all christians are like this) reaching out to people in the community. Church is a place for Christians, never should a non-believer cross the threshold of a church, unless they randomly walk in, because that is not what Church is about. We are supposed to live our lives as a witness and show them, and tell them what we are and how they can have Jesus. but that is not what we do now, its the pastors job to save people, which is wrong. Church is for Christians only. and it is supposed to be an interactive activity where everyone contributes, and no one just sits back and is lazy, not saying that you cant just sit back and grow, but the best way to grow is to do, and share. Too many people show up at church, sit back, listen (maybe), and then leave. We all come from diffrent backgrounds, diffrent viewpoints and having a God who is infinite and unknowable He reveals himself to everyone slightly diffrently to get to know God fully we need everyones input, not just one man who stands up front and tells you that he knows it all (not that all pastors are like that some are very good about getting other peoples opinions into his sermon and stirring up discussiona) if we are not all actively sharing together we can never grow beyond how strong the pastor is, NEVER. because he is the instructor, and there is no personal growth. That is why i think a barbecue get to gether with a bunch of Christians who are actually active and love talking about how God is working is more beneficial than a month of church. Church has become distorted by the world, and we as christians cling to it like its the TRUTH rather than the distortion it has become. I wish i was wrong, i go to church, but i also go to bible studies, and get togethers with the people of the church. i go because its hard to find Christian people outside of the Church. but hopefully we wake up and grow again.
@squanto_07@xanga - You express extremely well some of the major problems I have with Protestantism. See, for the ancient religions (Jew and Catholic) the instructions are very clear. God made the rules and the Church teaches them. The notion that people can make up their own Sabbath church services is absurd. The notion of "everybody just do your own thing" is an example of a common modern error in thinking.
A second big problem that I see with what you and others express, is the fear of condemnation and judgement for not wanting to conform to Church doctrine. For you, religion is all about measuring up or going to hell. This is a tragic belief system that completely misses the point of God's plan of salvation.
Lastly, I know people who don't go to church on Sundays. They are big hearted, salt of the earth people who put most of the human race to shame in the "but, I'm a good person department." When I'm with people like that I just stand in awe of their goodness and wisdom.
So what's the name of the game? Try REVELATION. The entire purpose of human life is to know, love and serve God. God has reveled himself to us completely through Jesus Christ. By following the Commandments we come to know, love and serve God more fully.
I know that I am wicked through and through. I don't say that to be falsely modest. I say that because I know myself just a little bit. I'm a killer, a liar, a fornicator, a thief, an arrogant fool.
If religion was about measuring up or being with people just like me, I would have formed my own prayer group a long, long, time ago.
@LoBornlite@xanga - I also believe that we are supposed to teach the Word as God put it down. I have no wish at all to try to change what the Word says so that i feel more comfortable. On the other hand I do distrust the Church. It was transformed radically over they years by supposed believers (Constantine for example who changed it into the state religion to unify his country, not to spread the Gospel) who had more goals towards the government than too God. It became a way to further their personal agendas, rather than to Worship God. In 2 timothy 2 it says Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. this is a call for personal interpretation of the Bible. There are many places in the Bible where the Bible says Judge for yourself, how are we supposed to answer this? Yes there are absolutes, but having everyone judge them together is harder to corrupt than it is for one person to say what he thinks they mean. If one man is wrong, and he leads everyone, then everyone is wrong. I know that you believe that if the Pope says it then it is true because of Peter founding the Church, and Peter is supposed to have the keys to heaven and hell and because of his knowledge of who Jesus was, but why does in the very next section of scripture Jesus call Peter Satan? If according to this section Jesus gives Peter the keys to heaven, and then calls him Satan, is Jesus giving Satan the keys to heaven and hell? Of course not! the word for you in this particular passage is σοι which is a plural, not a singular. If Jesus was really giving Peter the keys to heaven he would have used the word συ which is the singular. Thus he was talking to all of the disciples at this time, not just Peter. Thus the idea of the Catholic church that they are the sole interpreter of the bible is shown to be false, but if Christians do not themselves investigate the bible then they will never know, because the leaders can lead them around however it serves their agenda. Not that all Popes are like that, there were some through out history that i admired. though i think they strayed pretty far from the Biblical example. But then again i believe most of Christianity is guilty of that, not just the catholic church.
i hope i did not offend at all with that last post, its just how the bible puts it
When someone says to me that they do not have to go to church, I quite agree. The fact is that Church exists where even two or three are gathered in His name.
But I go to a particular church with a building every week and serve that church because I love God and therefore wish to serve His people. I don't do this because I like everything the church does. I don't do this because I think everyone in it is an ideal Christian.
I don't feel entitled to a perfect experience within a Christian community because I too am imperfect.
quite right.
going to church is an expression of devotion to our allegiance to God... because we are obedient we recognize the passage in Hebrews where it says not to forsake the assembly of the brethren...
HAVE TO... no... should... yes...
because going to church isn't about us really... it's more about us serving people because of Jesus... that's church... growing together, learning together, serving together, loving each other, keeping accountable to each other in our communities of faith...
that's church....
and i do not worry about being condemned, i believe that when i admitted my sins to Jesus and asked for forgiveness, and asked to be part of his kingdom i was saved. so i actually have no fear of being condemned. their is no measuring up, i am fully saved already. i do try to become more like Jesus, but it is not out of fear of condemnation, it is out of respect for Him. i am confused though, to me you are the one who should be fearing condemnation. because as i see it you are never sure if you are good enough. you have to confess all the time to be saved, and you have to go through a mediator, who is hopefully in good standings with God at that point. and i am also confused about the whole going through marry thing, does the bible not say there is no mediator between God and man, is she not used as a mediator? as is your pope? and everyone else along the line in the chain? not meaning offense, just curious how you view what i see as inconsistencies.
@squanto_07@xanga - When you say to your buddy Joe, "Joe, you're a really good guy and close to God, will you pray for me?" does it make Joe into a mediator? If not, then how is saying to Mary, "Mary, you're really cool and close to God, can you pray for us?" making her into a mediator?
Or when you talk to an older relative about some event in your life where you feel as if you weren't doing right and get good counsel and forgiveness from them, is that person a mediator, or is God just speaking to you through them?
As it turns out, the ritual practices of Catholicism are often just healthy practices we should do anyway that have been institutionalized and universalized so that all can benefit from them.
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - I would say that the organization of any large group of people around common beliefs provides great potential for good and bad. People, even in groups of common beliefs, act as individuals. From there, when someone suggests something, the herd mentality tends to kick in, for better or for worse. Don't forget that in the last 100 years the greatest atrocities have been committed in the void of religion, not in the name of it.
i do think some kind of fellowship is part of living the best christinan life you can. i havent been going to church much the last few years since i moved away from home. but i do feel that i probly should be.
@squanto_07@xanga - Well, someone else already answered the mediator issue. I wanted to clarify for you though that Bishops are the successors of ALL the Apostles, not just Peter. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom as the leader of the Apostles just as the Pope is the leader of all Bishops.
It is also a misunderstanding that using Greek interpretations is the key to understanding. Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. He calls Peter "Cephas", which is a translation of Kepha, which is the Aramaic word for "rock". Jesus was not building His Church on all disciples, He was building it on the rock to which he was directly referring, Peter.
You quoted 2 Timothy 2. I think you did at least, I am not sure about your quotes, your writing style is a little unclear and what you said does not appear, verbatim, anywhere in 2 Timothy 2, in any verse. Anyway, though, you should also look to 2 Timothy 3, 16.
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.
Note that the word used is useful. Not that is is sufficient, or all that you need in any way.
@juejee@xanga - I don't believe that verse explicitly means to get your rear into a seat on Sunday morning. I believe that it means to be actively involved in close fellowship with believers. Now, whether that be a Sunday gathering, Wednesday night Bible study, or your MOPS group, we are called to love each other, encourage each other, and keep each other accountable. It's not about rules. It's about *being* the body of Christ.
@squanto_07@xanga - Ahhh, where to begin. Your questions about the Scriptures (Peter, the Pope, Satan and all) demonstrate the absolutely crucial need for the Church. The Church is the final authority on Scripture, doctrine and morals. Jesus created the Church at Pentacost. The Church is the continued Presence of Christ in the world. It is sacred. It is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Jesus set up a hierarchy (the Apostles and their chosen assistants and successors) and after the Resurrection, explained the meaning of the Scriptures to the first disciples (the Road to Emmaus for example). The Church has guarded the meaning and intent of the Scriptures ever since. So, if you do not trust the Church you do not trust Christ. It is as simple as that.
Your total misconception about Constantine is an example of the pervasiveness of anti-Christian propaganda. The work of Constantine was a series of miracles. Long story short: In just over 300 years, a tiny Jewish cult rose up to conquer the Western world. It went from a motley crew of persecuted outsiders, to the coin of the realm. "State religion" rubs us the wrong way today. But in 325, Constantine convoked the Council of Niceae. This Council put to bed the heresy that Jesus was not divine. You know Jesus as the Son of God because of Emperor Constantine.
Christ is the mediator between God and Man. And after his death, the Church became the mediator, since the Church is the continued Presence of Christ in the world.
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - Organised religion, as is, means an unlimited potential for "bad." Holy wars, anyone? Bible pushers? Evangelists?
It hasn't worked out great for anyone not Christian so far.
Christianity is not organised by those standards listed in the blog,
and so no I don't think that anyone should have to go to church.
Holy Wars: Power Hungry leaders taking advantage of people's faith. No holy war is biblical, because the Bible calls for love. If these "Holy" wars were really based on Christianity (for example), then why kill the very people who need to live? It's not logical. It's not religion, it's politics.
As for Bible pushers, that's the same as anyone who means well but doesn't know how to go about it. Same goes for the "annoying Evangelists". They're over zealous, yes, but it's not because they're religious, they just to be over zealous with their religion. And why complain, anyway? They wouldn't bother if they didn't love you. Yeah, it's annoying, but so is my mom enforcing curfew. "Oh no! People trying to save my life!"
I don't know what churches you've been to, but my church is pretty much ideal. It could be described like this guy's church, easily. And the point he makes about how a church isn't building, it's the connection with people. Personally, I'd rather be connected with a bunch of Bible pushers and busy bodies who love me and frustrate me than some of the other things I could get caught up in. And that IS what happens. You can't just cut yourself off from society, you have to do something. It's life.
@wiseguysupreme4@xanga - "They wouldn't bother if they didn't love you."
The only Christians that love me are my best friends, because most Christians think Wicca is devil worship.
Church- the whole body of Christian believers.
Church is used to spread the word upon many people and is easily accomplished by having a structure devoted to it.
You are in "Church" everyday by the actions you perform and the values you pass along to the world.
The day of rest is for reflection upon the previous days and to give thanks for everything you have, a structural building has nothing to do with it.
"We are in God's house every breathing second"
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - Even if a Christian thinks you're killing babies in your spare time, that would be all the more reason to love you. Jesus spent his time on the people who needed his help (and knew it), not the people who thought they were set for the afterlife. I'm glad you have such smart Christian friends, though.
Yeah, some people get a kick out of shoving their ideas down throats (UGH!), but most of the time, it IS an act of love, synonymous with taking your drunk friend's car keys or something of that nature. We don't really gain anything from sharing our faith at first. Going with the drunk driving metaphor, it would be kind of selfish to keep it to ourselves (let my drunk friend drive home himself because I'm too lazy to stop him), yeah?