Monday, 27 October 2008

  • Can You Lose Your Salvation?

    Guest post by Biblerapture


    I help teach a basic class in Christianity at my church. This question usually arises after a discussion on the seriousness of sin and a definition of sins of commission and sins of omission, etc. We all have done things we wish we had not done, but some of us have a more sordid past than others.... so forgiveness is tough for some.

    I was always of the theological position that since Romans 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus", that we cannot 'earn' our way to heaven because it is a gift. Moreover, Ephesians 2:8,9 state: "it is by Grace you are saved through FAITH, not of works, lest anyone should boast"; so I came to the conclusion that if eternal life was truly a gift from God that we received through Faith (Trust) in Jesus Christ, then how could I lose something that was FREE?

    The only thing I did was accept the free gift of eternal life and trust in what Jesus did for me on the cross. Even my Faith in Christ was from Him.

    Then... I talked with someone much more mature than I.  He suggested that the scripture actually supports both sides of the question, and wouldn't it be better to live your life as if you 'could lose eternity', rather than thinking you were okay and not? Now this did not mean adding works to my salvation. He meant making sure we tried to do what we believe God is telling us to do, and not taking risks with sinful choices.

    What does your church or your interpretation tell you about the possibility of losing your salvation?

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Comments (85)

  • Nailed92@xanga

    Guess what...none of us are saved. Yeah I said it, we are NOT saved. That might cross your theology but it's very true. We (at least I) are in the process of being saved. Salvation is an ongoing process. You cannot be baptized and then go "hey I get to go clubbing and drinking tonight, but I can still go to heaven!!". No it doesn't work that way. Our works have a lot to do with living for God and being saved. Yes I said that too. You cannot be saved without works. That will cross most of your theology again. Without faith it's impossible to please God. Guess what!!! Faith takes action. Faith without works is dead! 'gasp!' Wow faith requires our works? You cannot believe in a God you cannot see without faith. Therefore I have to take action to show I believe in a God I cannot see. Salvation is a gift, but a gift we are required to open ourselves. God is not going to unwrap it for us. We have to live holy and righteous in the sight of God. That's why God gave us the Holy Ghost. I said us as in God gave it to us, but we have to recieve it. Through faith (ahem action). I'm probably going to get a few disagreeing replies but it's the truth folks. Read your Bible. You can lose your salvation! I pray you don't or if you don't have it already, that you will get it soon!
  • nicolevw@xanga

    @Nailed92@xanga - it's unfair to say that those of us that espouse that salvation cannot be lost, are not reading our bibles.     I could say the same to you ..........I believe that you have Scripture completely wrong.   You are misunderstanding the one time event of justification (the act of BEING saved) with sanctification - the process of being made holy which takes  alifetime.      No one who believes that you can't lose your salvation has any argument whatsoever that faith is not accompanied by works.   We are the first to say that faith is shown by good works.   But what you and others don't seem to understand is that we see a HUGE separation between what saves and what doesn't.    Salvation is a free gift from God - completely by His grace.    We can only attain salvation and indeed - heaven - by accepting this wonderful gracious gift.   When the Holy Spirit works in your heart to believe - and you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - and it's a genuine belief, and along with that have a repentance of sin- then BOOM - you ARE saved.    Good works after that are a result of the faith you've been given.    Any of these good works are STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO EARN/MERIT (whatever you want to call it)  HEAVEN AND SALVATION.   That's where you and others don't understand us - and refuse to - in my humble opinon - see true Biblical teaching.    


    To use the words of a previous poster - there are most certainly false teachers in the Church of Christ - leading people astray - and I think some are here.  (just like obviously some of you think that I and others are of a false persuasion).


    It's too bad that it has to be like this.   But, interpretation is interpretation.   For me, it's not just a feeling or an idea.  It's a result of careful study over the years, and reading and learning under esteemed theologians who know more than you or I ever could.     It's a result of reading Scripture myself.   


    Oh - and I should clarify - those of us who believe that you can't lose your salvation - do not believe for a moment that once saved it frees you to do whatever you want.    Anyone who says "I'm saved" and then goes and does things that are clearly against scripture and are not repentant and harden their heart - were never saved in the first place.  It was a false "faith".   All true believers - yes, even those of us who believe you can't lose your salvation -  will show fruits of their faith by living a life of obedience because of the power of the Holy Spirit living in us.


    I'm glad that I have BEEN saved, I am glad that I am daily being sanctified through His Spirit and I am thankful that I know that my glorification has already been done through Christ ---- Heaven is my home - of that I am assured!   (Romans 8:30)

  • Pass_the_Aura@xanga

    @oeshpdog2@xanga - Huh?!?  I've addressed all the Scriptures you've brought up, either directly or by showing the general parameters of how they fit with the others.  In fact, I've mentioned several Scriptures you have yet to even acknowledge-- for instance, Jesus' statement, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."  Do you really think that fits with your view that our salvation rides on what we can do?  If so, we're all toast, since we can do-- how much? Nothing!  That's not my feelings--that's Jesus talking, who is the Truth! 

    You make some unfortunately patronizing remarks about my knowledge of Galatians. (Think logically now-- Could it be that I quoted only a few verses because, having studied it all extensively for years, I thought that sentence was a good summary and preferred to save space by not cutting and pasting the whole book?)  But this only compounds the issue: You are arguing for the view that Paul refutes, that a person needs to do the works of the law to be saved-- that's what your idea that you must "prove your love... work to remain in the vine" means if it means anything.  The Bible says plainly that this human idea is contradictory to the Gospel that we are saved by God's grace, not our works.  I agree.

    "But if it [God's acceptance] is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

    Of course the Bible exhorts us about "not giving up and continuing to fight the fight and endure the temptations of sin and on and on".  What it doesn't say is what you say, that the consequence of negligence is "falling from grace."  As though God would say, "Oh, I had enough grace to save you originally when you were my enemy, but whoops, you committed a sin; now I have to change my mind about being gracious!"  The fact that we must be intentional and exercise our will to resist the devil and follow Jesus has no bearing on the question of whether anything can separate us from God's love, grace, and forgiveness!  I recall that Romans 8 has a few things to say about that, if you like.

    As for the context of Gal. 6:9, the object of "give up" in the verse itself very obviously is "doing good"-- not "being saved", which isn't even mentioned!  (Your exhortations about reading the whole verse are very applicable here.)  If I sinfully decide to give up on doing a particular good deed, how on earth does it follow that Jesus has decided not to save me? Indeed, the whole of chapter 6 (like the entire epistle) fits perfectly well with what Jesus said, which is what I've been saying all along.  In context, Paul's point is very clear: "...the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." (v.8)  What's that? Not from his own persistence or work?  Eternal life and sanctification come only from the Holy Spirit?  Do tell!

    Eternal life is a gift from God, not from our own work.  It is absurd and counter-scriptural to believe that the fruit of this gift from God comes from our own work!  Once again, I'll put to you the question Paul put to the Galatians: "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

    If you really want to attempt to live your Christian life under your own power, and to believe that your eternal security depends on how well you're able to do it, well then, best of luck to you; you'll need it.  Just don't call it grace, and don't call it the Gospel.  It's neither one.  As for me, I like what the Bible has to say: "[Jesus] is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him." (Heb 7:25)
  • aModernBeauty@xanga

    We still have to cultivate our faith.  It's not free. 


    James 1:12


    12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.


    James 2:14-17


    14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


    James 2:20-22


    20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.


    James 2:26


    26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
  • pmiller683

    I think this is a great question and a great post. Perhaps every Christian at some time or another struggles with this question. There seems to be scriptures in the Bible with conflicting points of view, yet when you examine them more closely they make sense.


    For example – there are scriptures that emphasize obedience, honesty, not living in perpetual sin or ‘they will not inherit the kingdom God’ or says ‘will not see God’. So there seems to be conditions for being in the presence of God. Where God’s love is unconditional, yet God is light and He cannot exist where there is darkness. To be in heaven the Bible teaches us is to be in the ‘presence of the Lord’. To be in His presence comes with conditions.


    We must be a like a child - Luke 18:17 – Jesus says - Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.


    So here I see we should have childlike faith and obedience.


    We have scriptures in the New Testament that people who live in sin or certain types of sin will not enter the Kingdom. So I see two attributes of God in conflict with each other. He is all loving (he loves everyone) and at the same time is He is all pure, righteous and light; and light cannot mix with darkness. He longs to be with all of us, even those who do not believe and or live in sin.


    So I don’t believe it is in the heart of God to take away your salvation, or let go of you, dropping you out of His hand. I do believe that Christians can become tempted back into sin, deceived or in some cases simply discouraged by life and others.


    Sometimes sin is too attractive. I think this happens easier when we are not regularly praying, reading the Bible, under the teaching of a solid church leader and accountable to other Christians. That can be a church setting, small group setting, spiritual mentor, etc. I watch this in my own life to be very careful.


    For others perhaps it is the difficulty of life. They go through terrible circumstances and lose heart, even get angry at God and then walk away.


    Still others get hurt by the church. I have met so many who have abandoned the Christian faith because some church (people or persons) have hurt them. (I think Satan loves to use offense to drive people away from God).


    The common trait in all of these circumstances is that the individual makes either a slow sliding decision or a sudden decision to walk away from God.


    I don’t think God takes away salvation so much as we give it up.


    Ultimately, God has given each of us a free will. When I find myself forcing what I want or behaving in such a way that is contradictory what the Bible calls the ‘Fruit of the Spirit’; I find myself asking God for his forgiveness and running toward Him and not away from Him. For me the greatest challenges have been when seeming unfair things have happened to me. When bad things happen to good people, and there is no apparent reason for them to deserve it, we can easily begin to think that God has abandoned us. I suffered through a terrible six month ordeal this past year. Without going into the details, it was very easy to whine and complain about the unfair and undeserved circumstances I suffered. Rather than run away from God, I ran to Him. Prayed, studied and worshiped. Scriptures told me that I will have trouble in this life; challenges to overcome. Scripture also says our faith will be tested. Well mine was, along with my family – we not only persevered; but also took huge steps of faith that required risk, sacrifice and counting cost.


    I received Christ – made the big decision at the age of 25 – that was 18 years ago (you do the math). God has always been faithful to me. When I am tempted to do crappy stuff, or discouragement tempts me to walk away and abandon my faith – I see it for what it is. It is distraction at the very least and the very most it is the Devil himself trying to get me to ‘Give Up’ my salvation, on God and the hope of heaven.


    So… I don’t think He takes it away, I think we give it up, slip away or outright walk away from Him.


    I will dig in deeper to the Bible – I recall some teachings many years ago that used various scripture to support what I am verbalizing here. I will explore it again.


    Thanks for the great topic.

  • Andrea_TheNerd@xanga

    I'm seing a lot of interesting things here:


    "I would say that most American Christians aren't even Christian--just seekers." (source)


    "If it was our responsibility to make sure that we got saved, then certainly we could lose our salvation.  However, it's not, never was, and never will be, thanks be to God!" (source)


    "I don't think it's a question of if we can lose it [salvation], but if we ever truly received it." (source)


    "If someone is soundly saved in the first place they can not lose their salvation. The Holy Spirit will keep them." (source)


    "Salvation is about BELIEVING. You can't "unbelieve" so how could you lose your salvation?" (source)


    "Anyone who says "I'm saved" and then goes and does things that are clearly against scripture and are not repentant and harden their heart - were never saved in the first place." (source)


    I used to be a Christian.  If anyone ever asked me if I believed in God, I would have a hundred reasons why.  If anyone asked me a theological question, I could find the answer in the Bible in 5 minutes.  If anyone invited me to sin, I would resist for the glory of God.  Hell was very real to me, salvation was real, faith was real, the Spirit was real.  And yet all of that is behind me now.  If you had known me and known my thoughts, there would be no doubt of my salvation, and yet it is no more.


    So here's the question: Was I ever truly saved to begin with?
  • TrumvilleOrbison@xanga

    I'm not sure what I think yet. I've always been taught "once saved, always saved" but that doesn't ring true to me. Here's a bit of Romans 11: "It's certainly possible to say, 'Other branches were pruned so that I could be grafted in!' Well and good. But they were pruned because they were deadwood, no longer connected by  belief and commitment to the root. The only reason you're on the tree is because your graft 'took' when you believed, and because you're connected to that belief-nurturing root....If God didn't think twice about taking pruning shears to the natural branches, why would he hesitate over you? He wouldn't give it a second thought. Make sure you stay alert to these qualities of gentle kindness and ruthless severity that exist side by side in God--ruthless with deadwood, gentle with the grafted root. But don't presume on this gentleness. The moment you become deadwood, you're out of there. And don't get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don't persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts....Just be glad you're in the tree, and hope for the best for the others." You can read the rest of the chapter here.


    One of the biggest problems I have with the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is that it doesn't require any kind of meaningful interaction with God. All you have to do is say a prayer and mean it. Well, anyone can mean it, but that doesn't mean they get it. I know when I was little I'd pray a prayer like that like every other week, I was so scared the first one hadn't taken. In the evangelical sense, I've been saved since I was like seven. But I never actually met God, interacted with God, until seventeen or eighteen. The Bible says in many places that faith without works is dead, that if you love Christ, you'll walk the road he walked. It only takes a little faith, but that faith has to propel you into action and deep thinking and struggle and all kinds of hard things and also all kinds of beautiful things. I think it's sad that so many churches religiously teach the "simple salvation prayer" without teaching people how to search for God and actually interact with God by following the teachings of Christ. It's sad that so many churches never bother teaching what Christ taught at all. And the "narrow way" reference really bothers me when used to prod people to pray that prayer. Tons of people "believe" in Jesus--that's nothing. Even the demons believe, hm? But sadly only a small number of people try to actually live like he did. Only a few people find that road, and consequently the road is very narrow. I also don't think that necessarily means it will always be so narrow.


    I'm not sure of the exact reference but I was just reading it last night: the one where it says whoever God gave him, Jesus holds in his hand? In The Message translation, it says when Jesus gets ahold of us, he never lets go. For the first time I understand that verse in a new way now. Probably because Jesus has gotten ahold of me. He's gotten under my skin. In my veins. Like if Jesus was crack, I'd be an addict. But NOT in the traditional evangelical understanding at all. I was born and raised in the church, but I have to start over, start over like a small child and unlearn all the wrong thinking I've been taught over the years. This time I have to make the decision to take my direction from Christ only, not the church, which is far too often misguided at best. There's a lot I still don't understand, and I like it that way. It keeps me thinking and it keeps me coming back for more.
  • aclaus225@xanga

    This is the whole distinction between Arminianism and Protestantism.  I believe in election, which means that you cannot lose your salvation.  You can try as hard as possible to live a perfect life, but the true fact is that you cannot live a perfect life and it is not because of any merit of your own, but because of the gracious gift that Jesus has given us that we are saved.  
  • Nailed92@xanga

    @nicolevw@xanga - You know as well as I do, there are people who live for God for years. They do great things for God and the church. Why then do they backslide? Does that mean they have lost their salvation?


    You wrote "Good works after that are a result of the faith you've been given.    Any of these good works are STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO EARN/MERIT (whatever you want to call it)  HEAVEN AND SALVATION."


    Notice I did not say my works earned my salvation. Also notice I said salvation is an ongoing process. You nor me are saved until we get to heaven. Now my works do not get me any kind of salvation. My works are not good enough. It's all in faith. But faith without works is dead. There will be action, if you have the faith to believe in God and want to be saved. There will be action taken. It's not just speaking the words. I can do that. It's having faith enough to repent of the sins commited, get baptized in name of Jesus, notice the Bible says you will recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. A gift? But wait what if I don't want that gift? Then you aren't going to be saved. Because salvation is a gift. You have to have FAITH (take action) to take the gift from God and open it.


    You can lose your salvation, otherwise why do I care to go to church every Sunday? Why do I repent almost every single day over sin commited in my life. I'm already saved, so none of that even matters! No it doesn't work that way.

  • nicolevw@xanga

    @Nailed92@xanga - you wrote:They do great things for God and the church. Why then do they backslide? Does that mean they have lost their salvation?


    First- we don't know who God's elect are.   Many people turn back to God in true repentance at the end of their earthly life.  They were 'saved' all long.   If they never return to God, they weren't saved in the first place.  Yes - many "believers" do great things for God and the church ---- and those are the people whom the Lord will say "I never knew you - away from me you evildoers!".


    you wrote:  Also notice I said salvation is an ongoing process.


    And I already clarified that we obviously have a much different view of salvation ----  my Biblical understanding of salvation is that once justified you are seen as righteous through Christ. End of story.   Sanctification is an ongoing process in the life of the believer.  It's what enables them to do the good works that are expected of all true children of God.


    you wrote:  But faith without works is dead. There will be action, if you have the faith to believe in God and want to be saved. There will be action taken. It's not just speaking the words.


    I agree.   It's just that you see your works as something you can do on your own.  I don't.    Works must accompany the life of the believer - absolutely.  But God the FAther won't see my works as anything worthy of salvation.  I'm still only saved by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.   Let me repeat what I said earlier ---- a TRUE Christian will always show good works because of the faith and salvation received.  They will walk the talk.  They will not be idle in their life.  It's the fruit of the faith - a faith that only God can give.


    You wrote:  It's having faith enough to repent of the sins commited


    Faith in and of itself is a gift bestowed upon those who are His elect.    I can't get more faith than what is given me.  And God will bestow lots of faith on those who are His.   I can only repent of my sins etc IF I have faith which first comes from God.  By grace we have been chosen!!  (Ephesians) ...... And 1 John speaks so much of God loving us first - loving us enough to choose us for Himself and not leave us in our sin.


    You wrote:


    You can lose your salvation, otherwise why do I care to go to church every Sunday? Why do I repent almost every single day over sin commited in my life. I'm already saved, so none of that even matters! No it doesn't work that way.


    I cannot lose what Christ already did for me.   When I believed - ie when I was given faith and responded in faith to what Christ did - I became JUSTIFIED.    Now because of that - I WANT to go to church every Sunday for there I am fed and nourished by the Word of God.  I  WANT to repent because I know I am offending the Holy God by the sins I commit daily - I confess my sins because I also know from studing God's Word that He requires that of us.     I'm already saved - but that doesn't mean the rest of God's Word is null and void.  I will WANT to do all these things and more because of gratitude and because I obey the Lord my God precisely BECAUSE I am saved.    


    I feel sorry for people who don't have the assurance of heaven as their eternal destination.   How does it feel to live each day wondering "did I do enough today - have enough faith - to warrant eternal life?  what if I  fall away next year?  then what?" "what if I die tonight with unrepentant sin? does that mean hell is my destination?"


    Romans 8:30 "and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified, those he justified, he also glorified." - the NIV footnote puts it quite well as an explanation " this is the sequence by which God carries out his predestination.  glorified.  Since this final stage is firmly grounded in God's set purpose, it is as certain as if it had already happened."
  • oeshpdog2@xanga

    @Pass_the_Aura@xanga - I am going to take our discussion off line if you don't mind and continue through messages.
  • oeshpdog2@xanga

    @nicolevw@xanga - To me...you are showing that an argument is just that...an argument when supported by very little scripture.  You write lengthy narrative with very little scripture to back it up minus the one you take out of context to support your view of pre-destination.  Your one verse contradicts so many other sciptures throughout the New Testament which should show that your conclusion is wrong.  God pre-destined that any who come to believe and obey His will should have eternal life.  His plan was pre-destined from the beginning of time.  That fits with the numerous other scripture throughout the whole Bible.  The acid test of any belief is if it contradicts other plain truths throughout the Word of God.  When Jesus gave His great commission to the Apostles...He said go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature...Mark 16:15-16
  • Twirrim@xanga

    To the best of my knowledge there actually is a way to lose your salvation, one specifically referenced unforgivable sin:

    Mark 3:29:"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

    Luke 12:8-10:  8 "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9 But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And
    everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but
    anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
  • Pass_the_Aura@xanga

    @Andrea_TheNerd@xanga - That's the interesting thing that really shows the futility of this whole kind of discussion: Whichever diagnosis the theologians choose to give you, the cure is the same.  If you were never truly saved in the first place, you need to turn to Jesus.  If you were truly saved and have now temporarily wandered away, you need to turn to Jesus! 

    Whatever your state is now (and my thought is, that's between you and God), the moment you turn to Jesus, He is waiting to welcome you.  Whether it's welcoming you back or welcoming you for the first time, who cares?  He's still full of grace and forgiveness either way.

    (Not that I'm trying to convert you if you don't want that now.  As I say, that's between you and God.)
  • Biblerapture@xanga

    @Andrea_TheNerd@xanga - 


    So here's the question: Was I ever truly saved to begin with?


    Depends. Depends on what you mean by :"...I used to be a Christian.....And yet all of that is behind me now.  If you had known me and known my thoughts, there would be no doubt of my salvation, and yet it is no more..."


    Do you mean you now reject what Christ did for you and just don't believe anymore?


    or do you just mean you are not going to church anymore?


    or do you mean you are involved in something that contradicts the Bible? What?


    Regardless, Christ wants you back in a close relationship with Him.....
  • Boss_Lady0952@xanga

    I seriously doubt that this question -- which has been debated by renown theologians for centuries -- will be settled here, and, as always, there continues to be sharp disagreement.  


    I came out of a Calvinist background and was thoroughly steeped in the doctrines of election and "once saved always saved."  But, as my husband and I studied the scriptures, we began to realize that there were scriptures that not only did not support those doctrines but actually conflicted with them.  And, rather than go to commentaries and man's teachings, we decided to study the scriptures themselves. 


    Out of that study (a process that took a few years) we came to understand what I mentioned earlier:  I can never just "lose" my salvation, nor can someone else take it from me.  BUT, God will not override the free will He has given me, and I can choose to walk away from Him.  Forever.


    I view the difference of opinion in this matter much like that of the Jews who could not reconcile the fact that the Messiah was to come as both the Lamb of God to be sacrificed and as King of Kings.  It seemed to be a conflicting message, but it was just that God's plan was beyond anything that humans could imagine.  Even those of us who love the Lord, believe with all our hearts, and study His Word have an imperfect understanding of Him and His ways.


    So, all our differences aside, I think there is one thing we can all agree on:  As long as we abide in Christ, we are eternally secure.
  • shillyshara@xanga

    "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

    I think that's pretty self-explanatory. NOTHING, not even ourselves, can separate us, once we have accepted His free gift.
  • trcm_dave@xanga

    Joh 6:37/40  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    This promise of the Living Christ never to lose us or cast us out , is the absolute guarantee to the elect of God.  It is a guarantee of our salvation.


    The Father entrusted us to his only begotten Son before the foundation of the world. Because Christ is God in the Flesh he is infallible and quite capable of looking after the Sheep commited to his care. If one should go astray he would ensure that it is returned safely to his fold.


    Eph 1:3/6   Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    The Father who cannot make mistakes , being a omnicesient and omnipotent knew exactly who we were before we were born into this world. He is the Author of our Salvation and the finisher of it too, for he commited our priceless souls to his only begotten Son.


    Joh 6:38/.40  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Heb 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


    It is God who drew us to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, He gave us the gift of Faith and extended his Grace  to us.


    Salvation is not based upon an emotional spur of the moment human decision, but upon God working in us and through us by the Holy Spirit.


    Our Salvation is based upon a spiritual redemption, not a physical redemption, in that the Spirit of God, begins a regenerative work upon the  spritually dead human spirit.


    We grow in Spirit, while we decay in our physical bodies (The flesh), the spiritual gift of eternal life is given to us upon Christ's merits not our own.


    Heb 2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


    Just as Christ had to face physical death, so we too will someday face it .


    1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


    Anyone alive in a physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven (God), they may see it in the Spirit.(In a Vision like John the Revelator)


    1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    There are no Human exceptions to this rule every human being that has descended from Adam has to die.


    1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:...42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    This explains the verse below, for one can be handed over to Satan , and still not lose their salvation.


    1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


    Salvation is an eternal  life giving change to our spirit.


    Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


    God's absolute love for us is revealed in Lamb's book of Life , in that he loved you before you were born, predestined you into the loving hands of his glorious Son, and comforts you by his blessed Holy Spirit.


    Through Christ he gives us Christ's victory over Death and Hell.


    1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
     


    We have been given Christ's victory.


    Re 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:(Christ) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.(Longer than Adam or Methusalah single day).


    2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


    Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    I am Eternally Secure in Christ, knowing that what God has promised he is well able to perform.


    Everlasting Life is not a candle that gets blown out by the first little breeze of wind, and cannot not be lost either.



     





     



     



     




     



     




     





     



     
  • DuckTapeJourneyman@xanga

    Like many of the responders have said, you can't "lose" your salvation.  But if you give it up, do you still get into heaven before because you once had it, or are you more of a sad case than the others, because you once had hold of salvation, but threw it away?
  • nicolevw@xanga

    @oeshpdog2@xanga - you seem to assume that I just pull on scripture to quote what pleases me.   What you fail to understand is that I have been brought up in the christian faith - specifically in the reformed faith my entire life, and have had the blessing on understanding why the reformation happened, and what was truly at the heart of it.    I have read numerous books and understood many sermons that sought to link the ENTIRE Bible together - understanding all of Scripture to determine the biblical doctrine of election - and all the other ones that go with "calvinism".    Those theologians who have studied this for years at seminary didn't just pluck a few verses out here and there to make it fit their thoughts.  They studied - went back to the original scrolls in hebrew and greek, and I believe, found a biblical doctrine that many people refuse to believe - because it doesn't "sound right" or "feel fair".      Would it surprise you to know that many renowned pastors and scholars of today - many of whom you may know - subscribe to this belief?  Men like Pastor John MacArthur, RC Sproul, J I Packer, Michael Horton, John Piper ...........Charles G Finney, Charles Spurgeon from the past.  And of course, let's not forget John Calvin himself.


    Just in case you think I'm just being "wordy" - let me assure you that I don't write flowing narrative for fun.  I am passionate about what I believe!!    


    And also - just in case you'd actually like to see that the doctrine of election is based on so much more than just a few verses, I suggest you reading through the following websites and thoroughly digesting them before telling me that I'm just plucking verses out at random:


    http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW02.htm


     


    http://www.gospeltruth.net/1836SOIS/10sois_election.htm


     


    http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2003/152_Pastoral_Thoughts_on_the_Doctrine_of_Election/


     


    http://www.soundofgrace.com/sep97/elect1.htm


     


    http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txn/elect.htm


     


    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/misunderstandings.html


     


    http://www.reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html


     


    http://www.gty.org/Resources/articles/9692


    You may choose to still disagree with me (and others) after perusing this ........but don't EVER again tell me or someone else that we're turning a blind eye to the scriptures you so eloquently quote when it is certainly more than apparent that established theologians have taken into account ALL of Scripture to come up with a thorough biblical understanding of the doctrine of election and predestination.
  • nicolevw@xanga

    Also - just a thought for those who believe in "free will",    There were only three people on this entire earth who ever lived that truly had free will.    Adam, Eve and Jesus.   Two of them took their free will and threw all of humanity into total depravity necessitating the third person to come and take care of it for us.   We don't have "free will" anymore, not like they did.
  • OsuwarInuyasha@xanga

    http://libertychurch.org/scripture_studies/salvation.pdf

    This is a good read.
  • OsuwarInuyasha@xanga

    @oeshpdog2@xanga - amen. Took me a long time to realize (from what my parents taught me, to Truth), you have to work out your salvation and that there are only a handful of verses for "once saved always saved."

    But as well for that of predestination, which I also don't believe anymore. I think predestination isn't important to debate on, if we don't know who is the "elect" and only God does, then why talk about it?

    Also, the new testament is present tense, there is no "you prayed a prayer, now you're good." That, is a false assurance, and the worst anyone can tell someone else. Also, many who have "prayed the prayer" are not passionate for Jesus, they have no fear of hell and are still living in self rule.

    A covenant can be broken (not on God's part of course), marriage is a covenant... what is divorce? Maybe they were never married to begin with?...lol

    Salvation does not alter our dna lol

    Its not "do we know Jesus?" but "Does Jesus know us?" It never asks in the Bible if we know Jesus.

    Thanks for posting.
  • OsuwarInuyasha@xanga

    @Boss_Lady0952@xanga - exactly!
  • oeshpdog2@xanga

    @nicolevw@xanga - A Theologian does not make them enlightened to truth.  I can quote numerous Theologians who differ drastically with the false doctrine of pre-destination.  I am glad to see that we both are students of Church history.  Are you not surprised in your studies that so many who came to be known as reformers also differed one with another over doctrinal questions and truth?  So how did John Calvin come to be more enlightened than say...Martin Luther or John Knox or later reformers like John Wesley?  They were all reformers were they not?  Yet they all differed with John Calvin on so many of his ideas and his creed.

    I wouldn't care if a thousand "theologians" were quoted in support of Calvinstic doctrine, that would not change the scriptures.  The Bible says that God chose the simple things to confound the wise which is why so many learned Bible scholars still ignore plain teaching and truth.  There are some pretty "smart" men and women who have studied all their life and believe that creation is false and evolution is how we are where we are today.  Does their Doctorates make them somehow more credible than the Word of God?

    By the way...there are some extablished theologians who believe that baptism is to be done when you are an infant and by the act of sprinkling.  And they have somehow taken all scripture into consideration.  Then there are established theologians who believe only those who have repented and are of an age to know what they are doing should be baptized and by immersion, not sprinkling.  So you see that some of these "learned and established theologians cannot all be right.  So some have learned a falso doctrine have they not?  Some are still confounded with some simple teaching are they not?

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