Tuesday, 14 October 2008
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Embryonic Cloning: Playing God or Saving Lives?
Guest post submitted by westernsoul
A month or so ago, a piece of literature informed me that scientists will now consider cloning embryos in order to take stem cells from the cloned embryo. There is obviously an ethical issue here; however, the scientists think this is a solution.
Their line of thinking is that since they are not killing an original embryo in order to procure these cells, it must be ok to clone, and then kill that cloned embryo for the harvest. Stem cells can have a variety of uses from curing cancers to repairing cells or replacing them, they can even program the genes in order to produce "desirable humans."
Now the problem I see in cloning embryos for harvest is that the scientists are playing God. What do I mean by playing God? Perhaps playing God is deciding when people should be brought into the world. The same idea stands when scientists decide when to harvest cells and kill an embryo. Maybe when these embryos are killed, it is not there time to die, maybe those embryos are meant to grow into great human beings whom are meant for great things.
These scientists can clone people at any stage in life; the hope here is to create perfect humans by altering their genes. Sure these ideas open doors for science and advancement for the bettering of humankind, but we have got to limit ourselves somehow.
Often times when humans are presented with new ideas, they don't know where to quit; as humans we naturally do not know where to stop, overstepping boundaries becomes the norm when we are excited with new ideas.
My Catholic religion does allow the stem cells of the umbilical cord to be used for science, just not those of living embryos. The problem with this is that the stem cells of the umbilical cord are not of good quality.
I just finished reading an article on how stem cells can now be harvested from the testicles of males. This is the supposed solution to the harvesting from live embryos. Tissue is taken from the testicles of males to obtain stem cells almost exactly like the embryonic, if not exactly. Sound painful? maybe, but the more I think of the concept I can not think of anything ethically wrong with it. Is this the solution to embryonic stem cell research?
Would like to know your thoughts Revelifers...
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Comments (55)
I think embryonic stem cell use is absolutely and unequivocally wrong, whether cloning is involved or not. An embryo is a life.
There is no such thing as "playing God". That is what I believe. God made us in his image. Along with God's image comes our ability to create and recreate. This is how we get our term- recreation. Anyway, who is to say that God didn't give us that ability to clone embryos for the reason of saving lives? I hate it when people claim they know the will of God when it comes to unborn babies.
I am not for killing unborn babies. I am not for abortion per say, but these things are unfortunatley going to happen. And even though the majority of America is against it, it is a human right and now, nothing can be done about it. So... if these embryos are dying, then why not put them to use? Then, they would at least have a purpose. They wouldn't be dying in vain!
These are just my thoughts. I don't know if I'm right or wrong. But it just makes sense...
I understand the situation is a little different because these people are creating (and I use this term loosely because only God can create "life") lives just to destroy them. I believe that life is something special- but who is to say that it isn't in God's will?
Maybe God wants us to do what we can to find cures for diseases... It is kind of like, it is either one life or another. Either way it is looked at, it would technically be "playing God" because we are still choosing who should live and who should die.
It is amazing to me that everyone wants to use embryonic stem cells when there is research that shows more progress in cures has been made using adult stem cells, which can be harvested without killing a human being.
That being said, cloning is wrong period.
I think that "playing God" is relative. Years ago it would have been thought of as "playing God" by transplanting organs from one human being to another... or artificially extending someone's life with life-support... or it could be argued that even basic medical care could be interpreted as "playing God" on some level.
I think concentrating on the ending of an innocent human life aspect is much more appropriate of an argument to defend.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but can you cite that for me. I really don't think I believe that... and if it's true, I would like it in its context.
I think cloning detaches us from the essential role that having a family plays in our lives. Aside from devaluing the actual process of procreation, and the role it plays in God's Plan for us, it obliterates the concept of the family, the way God intended it. We start devaluing the importance of the traditional family, we devalue everything.
@FishBowlB@xanga - I am sorry. I am really cynical and I realize this, but traditional family? Like the many children from many different mothers that David had? Times change, and along with that, tradition. A cloned baby can still have a family. It might be an adopted family, but it is still a family, none the less. And that is just as important as a "traditional" family.
I agree with the sentiment that we should not use embryonic tissue derived from a whole embryo (cloned or frozen/to-be-discarded). However, I am in full support for the usage of stem cells in research to either develop a therapy involving said cells or to use them as a tool for diagnosis. How is this possible? Others have said the usage of adult stem cells. Definitely possible, but it involves some deeply invasive procedures to procure a tissue sample in search for a very small population of cells.
However, another option that has been explored more and more recently is the de-differentiation of a somatic cell to an embryonic stage. This new procedure does not involve somatic-cell nuclear transfer (cloning) but rather a reprogramming/resetting of the nucleus of a somatic cell. Essentially, a doctor could take a small tissue sample from a patient and then generate a population of stem cells that match the patient. No embryos sacrificed, no need to take deeply-invasive tissue samples, and potentially a very very wide range of cell lines that can be used. Win-win anyone?
If you had asked this question of me two years ago, I would have most likely responsed I was against such a thing. My life and my perspective changed the moment I had a child born with a heart defect. Studies are being done now that shows they can actually grow a new valve for someone using stem cells.
I do not believe in abortion, but I am not the one aborting the child. If that embryo must die, why must it die in vain? Using those stem cells just might save the life of another child. While I do not condone aborting simply for the embryo, utilizing an embryo that was being aborted anyway seems in some small way to say that the ended life had meaning.
@gwacemom@momaroo - I agree with you!!!!
However, aborting is one thing- cloning an embryo to kill it and use it for stemcell research is another. What is your stance on that?
Re: "Their line of thinking is that since they are not killing an original embryo in order to procure these cells, it must be ok to clone, and then kill that cloned embryo for the harvest.": Identical twins are natural clones--is it okay to kill them for research or medical purposes? (obviously not)
As for "playing God," that's a very difficult line to draw. I mean, we decide when to bring someone into the world even in the most natural means (i.e., choosing when to have sex is partly a choice about bringing children into the world). And all our choices affect the length of our lives. I think a better focus would be how we view others--is an embryo being created to be a human life, or as a commodity? That is also my reply to jmallory--saying "at least they are being put to use" puts the embryos as resources rather than as sacred life. If we see our dead as human, we feel a moral obligation to give them a respectable burial, not to "use" their bodies.
The "playing God" idea also extends to the idea of making "perfect" humans. By whose standards?
it seems like all medical procedures can technically be considered "playing God." if someone has a tumor, clearly God placed it there. who are we to intervene and save a life?
I totally disagree with cloning. I believe that life is created by God and by God alone. I'm not sure I even agree with invitro fertilization - but that's a whole other thread!
Over time we have been given the ability to extend life and to do marvelous things - like transplants. However, in the past, extending life and transplanting organs has not involved the purposeful creating and/.or killing of another human life so another can live. Some on here are arguing for the use of aborted embryos stem cells for research with the argument - "they're gonna die anyways, so let's make it a purposeful death." But that's not what the original article is about. Is it right to clone another living embryo solely for the purpose of destroying it to advance humanity? I don't think so. Somehow, I don't believe that that is within God's will. Anything that involves purposefully destroying another human life can't be in line with God's will (ie - the 10 commandments)., Oh - and don't even begin to argue the whole "war" thing because I don't think the two are the same.
Problem is - as I see it - is that as humans, we can justify ANYTHING for our goals. And if scientists believe this will be for the good of all humanity, they will justify it. And thousands of living embryos - cloned or not - will DIE just so we can live. If God is the giver AND taker of life - who are we - mere mortals - to intervene like that?
@mrpine - I'm with Mr. Pine on this. I think it's far more important that we are killing innocent lives than cloning, per se.
My husband's ex girlfriend is working on her post-doc at Wake Forest and is one of the researches who worked on adult stem cell research. It is nearly as good as embryonic stem cell research. Using cloned embryos just for scientific research, then disposing of them sets a standard of how little life actually means to us. As the original poster said, the scientists are cloning embryos simply to kill them off again -- these aren't simply embryos waiting to be thrown away after a failed IVF attempt. Even then, I think the excuse that they would just be thrown away anyway is a poor argument in favor of it. There is a sanctity to human life, and doing research on "medical waste" takes away from that sanctity. It shows how little respect we have for life. Allow them to die in peace.
@nicolevw@xanga - we must have been posting at the same time. I agree with you.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I think we are called to "save" life - that is respecting life God has already created, we are respecting the fact that this is a human being, created by God for much potential! And the same respect should be given to embryos, and fetus's and premature infants. We do what we can to preserve life! Jesus did this too in His life on earth - and passed that on to His disciples. We've been given medical technology to help preserve life by removing the effects of this fallen world - disease, sickness and deformity. It would be morally and ethically wrong to leave someone in a state of misery if we can help them. But in those things - like removing tumours, doing transplants (from already "dead" people), giving blood, using artifical means of respiration ETC, we are not jeopardizing someone else's health. Someone else does not have to die. I think that's the issue here with cloning for the purpose of research.
@jmallory@xanga - If you let cynicism shape your viewpoints, then it's easy to settle for the lesser things. The truth is that every human wants to know his ancestery, where he comes from, WHO he comes from. That is why adopted children often go looking for their "real' parents when they are of age. Our family is very important to us, blood and all. I'm my oldest boy's "dad" but I make sure he knows his father as well, because I know it will be important for him to know. Even David's children knew who their mother and father were, and honored them, I'm sure.
@BaptistDancer@xanga - The idea is they are dying in vain. If the embryos are used, they would have died for a reason. Remember that Jesus died for us. And in reality, we use him as a resourse... and that is OK. His life was precious, but it had a purpose.
Anyway, then, you are valuing one life over another, either way. Why not use the dead embryos?
@FishBowlB@xanga - Ok. I see your point... P.S.- I am not letting cynisism shape my viewpoints. I think it is good to questions everything. I am such a strong Christian because of it. However, although I see your point, I can't actually say I agree with you. Clones still have "parents". It isn't like they are created out of nothing. They can still go and look for who they actually came from... where the "clonee's" parents are, etc... really, it is no different than test-tube babies. Just because they aren't born naturally, doesn't mean they don't have the chance to figure out who their family is... besides that, a clone could still live with his or her family- assuming they weren't used for stemcell research.
@nicolevw@xanga - well stated
@jmallory@xanga - I agree with you on questioning things. It's important we explore our beliefs and it does make us much stronger in our faith. And yes, if the world went in the direction of cloning humans they could have parents, and average lives. However, in the viewpoint of what is best, natural, Creator intended reproduction and good family influence is what will keep the world's ethics intact. Don't even make me bring up Grey Aliens... LOL!!!
@FishBowlB@xanga - Ethics, like tradition, changes over time. We have biblical ethics- which should stay the same- but then we have ethics that we uphold because of tradition and those are what change. I don't think that just because God created procreation a certain way, doesn't mean that that is how it has to be. God also gave us minds to think and hands to create our thoughts... just like he did. I believe it is a blessing. We should use it if God bestowed it on us.
I can't find anything unbiblical about cloning. I can see how it can be "unethical" but ethics change over time.... it isn't unbiblical.
@jmallory@xanga - First you are not being a jerk at all and for that I say thank you. Here is a website for you to check out. It doesn't say exactly what I said, but I can't find the website I first saw it on. (it was some time ago) check out stemcellresearch.org/alternatives
@nicolevw@xanga - AMEN! I totally agree with what you have said.
@sugartomyhoney@xanga - Thank you! :)