Thursday, 04 September 2008
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Why Couldn't God Just Forgive Us?
by mr willow
There’s a lot on my mind lately, but, though it’s not really a great pressing concern to me, I keep coming back to one particular issue. Perhaps that means it will be illuminating to somebody, so here it is.
From several places, I’ve heard what appears to be a common objection to the Gospel message:
“Why did Jesus have to die? If God was so eager to forgive us, why go through the whole shtick of executing an innocent person? Why is that even necessary—why couldn’t God just, well, forgive us?”
This is a perfectly valid question, and it makes a lot of sense to ask it. After all, there is something that seems just plain wrong about saying, “God decided to punish an innocent person instead of you… because He is so concerned about justice.”
But one thing I’ve found about many people’s objections to Christian beliefs is that they object to something that it is absolutely right to object to, except that it doesn’t happen to be a Christian belief. (For instance, I saw a post the other week wherein somebody was railing against the Apostle Paul because (he said) Paul taught the false doctrine that Christians were obliged to keep the whole Old Testament Law to be saved. That doctrine is certainly worth objecting to, which might be one reason the Apostle Paul objected so strongly to it in his epistles.)
Be that as it may, I think we have a similar case here. The idea that God punished an innocent person instead of just forgiving us does seem objectionable. But is it really the Gospel message? Maybe not. Hang onto your hats; let’s take a look.
Part of the confusion here comes from what I call the “Person C” Fallacy. Too often, you hear the Gospel message presented like this: God (Person A) takes the crimes of a human being (Person B) and places them on an innocent third party, Jesus (Person C), whom He then proceeds to torture and kill so Person B doesn’t have to suffer the consequences. Doesn’t Person B think Person A is a great guy?
A typical skeptic would say to that, “But that’s so unfair, unjust, and cruel!”
The typical skeptic would be absolutely right.
The answer, like the answer to so many objections to the Bible, is 1) That idea really is a moral dilemma, and 2) That idea is not what’s taught in the Bible. At all. Even if you’ve heard some Christians say it is.
If your eyebrows are raised at this point, just work with me here. Look at what the Bible teaches about Jesus. Jesus is said to be “God... manifested in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16). In other words, He was not Person C; He was Person A. God doesn’t punish some random innocent third party; He takes the penalty for our sins on Himself. Punishing someone else may be cruel, but voluntarily suffering for someone else is heroic, heartbreaking, and amazingly gracious.
That’s only part of it—even if Jesus is God, why did He have to die at all? Again, if God is so anxious to forgive, why doesn’t he just wipe the slate clean, say “I forgive you,” and start all over again?
The answer: That’s exactly what God did do. And that’s exactly why Jesus had to die.
Confused? Stay with me. The confusion this time comes from our English word “forgive.” We can use the word “forgive” in two different ways:
1) You offend me or otherwise hurt me, but I say, “I forgive you.” That means, “You hurt me, but I’ll overlook it because I don’t want it to wreck our relationship. No hard feelings.”
2) You borrow a thousand dollars from me, fall on hard times, and can’t pay it back. I say, “That’s OK; I’ll forgive you your debt.” That means, “You now no longer owe me a thousand dollars. On your records, it’s as though you’d never defaulted on the loan.”
On my records... well, I’m out a thousand dollars. That’s the price I’d have to pay to forgive the debt.
The Greek language, in which the New Testament was originally written, simplifies matters a bit by having a different word for each of these meanings. (Charizomai is the first and aphiemi the second, for those interested.)
Now clearly, when people ask “Why couldn’t God just forgive us,” they’re thinking about meaning #1. And it’s true that that first word does pop up in the Greek New Testament a few times in reference to forgiving people who have offended you. But by far the more common word is the second—the one that’s used in reference to forgiving debts. Here is just a quick sampling of some of the more notable uses:
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." --Mark 2:7
“Who can forgive sins but God alone?" –Luke 5:21
“…the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins…" –Luke 5:24
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. –1 John 1:9
And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. –James 5:15
It even occurs in the Lord’s Prayer: “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” (Matt. 6:12).
Now remember this is aphiemi, the kind of forgiveness that has to do not with overlooking the feelings but with clearing the accounts. As an interesting word-study aside, aphiemi in other contexts can be translated “leave behind,” “let alone,” “send away,” or even “divorce”—it’s talking about making a clean and total break with something.
So God doesn’t just overlook our sins and say “no hard feelings” (though He does that too of course). He does something even greater: The sin that was in your account book gets crossed out. That debt you couldn’t pay back gets canceled. Your sins are sent away—left behind—divorced.
That’s great news for us, but what does it mean for God? Remember, when a debt is forgiven, the creditor becomes the one who suffers the loss. And sin carries a big loss with it: “The wages of sin is death,” according to the Bible (Romans 6:23). Sin carries a consequence, just like work carries a wage. You work an hour; you get a set amount of money. You commit a sin, and something inevitably happens to your soul. You die.
By the way, I don’t think that God decided to set an arbitrary punishment for certain actions: “If they covet, let’s see… I know, I’ll give them the death penalty, bwa ha ha ha.” I see God’s moral laws as an attempt to keep us from doing something that would destroy us whether He made the rule or not: “DANGER! KEEP OUT! HIGH VOLTAGE! If you touch the wire, you’ll die!” The sign is there to keep you from being killed, not to kill you.
So there’s the dilemma: God wants to forgive us our sins as a creditor would forgive his debtor. But if He does that, He’s left with the debt, and in that case, that means He has to suffer death.
God can’t die. But a human can.
If God became a human, then He could die and the debt would be absorbed. The books would be balanced all around. There would be both justice (because the books would be fairly balanced) and mercy (because we didn’t have to die).
So Jesus is not Person C, nor even just Person A: He’s person AB. If Jesus is not fully God and fully Man, this whole arrangement is impossible: If Jesus is only A, B, or C, there’s an insuperable moral dilemma. But if Jesus is who the Bible says He is, there’s Amazing Grace.
“In Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them”
(2 Corinthians 5:19).Do you ever wonder why Jesus had to die?
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Comments (78)
This is quite an interesting way of understanding God's forgiveness.
I thought about this issue once before I digged into theology and the Scripture. What I realized was that God and His truth is the ultimate reality. If sin is really that bad, then the punishment for it reflects how bad it really is. Therefore God really has to punish sin in order to be just. Jesus really had to die because God is the the true reality.
There's no would've, could've, might've with God. If He thinks it, He does it, and It is declared done already. If God simply just forgives sinners, then it diminishes His holiness, His Law, His standard, and His glory. And God can't just say, I would have sent a savior to die for sinners to wash away their sin. Since I would've, it's done. But for God, what is is. His reality is more real than anything we can perceive with our senses. After all, God said, "Let there be light." And there was light. His Word and His action are one.
Well, those are just my personal random thoughts. But eventually, books like "Knowing God" By J. I. Packer and "The Truth about the Cross" by R. C. Sproul really helped deepened my understanding of the necessity of the Cross and God's righteous judgement on sinners. Check them out too if you have the opportunity :)
Thanks for the post
wow, it makes so much sense now. Great post!
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Yes and no. I'd agree that the themes of sacrifice and resurrection (but the latter not so much) are common in the religions of the world. Coming from a Christian perspective, I have no difficulty with C. S. Lewis's idea that these religions in their mythologies are creating a picture of the true nature of God and the world, which is ultimately brought to reality in the historical sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. (Cf. the Apostles' Creed: "He suffered [not in some mythical land but] under Pontius Pilate.")
On the other hand, a lot is made of the idea of "other dying and rising gods" that simply doesn't have any basis in fact. If you're interested in a long detailed article exploring this, here's a link.
@mrwillow - thanks... but frankly, my major is Ancient Studies, and most of what is on that website is very very wrong:
1. for the most part, The Golden Bough is no longer canonical in the study of ancient religion, magic and theology. most of the myths have been sufficiently translated and can be interpreted individually.
2. whether or not there is evidence for Attis' resurrection is mostly irrelevant, especially since it has just about as much evidence as Jesus. the only difference is that more people believe in the resurrection of Jesus. if that's all it takes to make something true, at one point the sun circled our planet...
3. the author of the website clearly does not understand Egyptian mythology. the gods are capable of dying, just like souls. Osiris may reside in the afterlife, but he is very much alive; and there's nothing that says he cannot come back. hey... that sounds familiar...
4. Persephone did not die. any child who has read the myth would know that.
5. most of what is written about Dumuzi is wrong... and i know this because i've read the myth cycle. and i promise you that none of them were written after Christianity came into being. and, again, it seems as though the author understands little about the mythology. for the Mesopotamians (and many cultures), the underworld was a physical place accessible from our world as easily as crossing a bridge. to simply leave the underworld is to be resurrected.
you get the idea, i think.
i have no problem thinking Jesus died and was resurrected. but i tend to view him as the Son of God, independent from God. otherwise, it's not a sacrifice. a large part of what causes suffering in humans is the unknown. if i knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that i would be resurrected after hanging on a cross, i'd go happily and willingly. that's not sacrifice... to sacrifice, you have to give something up. if Jesus was not only God, but was born specificially for this purpose alone, what did he give up exactly? why should i be thankful for something i'd gladly do myself under the same circumstances?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - This raises another whole mess of issues, but in brief,
- I think the article's author addressed those particular misconceptions because one does still find them touted pretty vigorously in certain quarters, especially online on antitheist websites. You and I know better (I wasn't aware you were into Ancient Studies--very cool), but for the less well-informed, it's good to have a tolerably accurate rebuttal.
- I don't know that anyone could really suffer death by crucifixion "happily and willingly"--the word "excruciating" was coined for a good reason! Are you really eager at the thought of being beaten half to death and then nailed to a board and hung up to die by slow asphyxiation over the course of several hours or days? The Gospels portray Jesus as knowing perfectly well that He would rise again (Mark 9:31, 10:34), yet praying in agony to avoid the crucifixion/death experience (Matt. 26:39), ultimately going through with it out of submission to the Father. It was not an easy decision for Him by any means.
- As for what Jesus gave up-- what didn't He give up? Existence as God, freedom from pain and suffering, peace, comfort, reputation, modesty, dignity, respect, the trust of his friends (Judas, Peter & co.), spiritual connection with God the Father ("why hast Thou forsaken me?"), and life itself, just to get the list started. George MacDonald wrote a magnificent "unspoken sermon" on this subject you might appreciate: "The Eloi"
Grace and peace to you.
@mrwillow - "I don't know that anyone could really suffer death by crucifixion "happily and willingly"--the word "excruciating"
was coined for a good reason!"
most of what i don't do in life is because i am unsure of the outcome. it's one of my biggest flaws. i still haven't gotten a tattoo... still haven't dyed my hair an unnatural color... still haven't auditioned for community theater. you can bet, though, that if i already knew the outcome (and it was good) i'd go for it without a second thought.
presumably, Jesus knew what was going to happen. what did he need to be afraid of? pain is temporary, and he already knew death would be as well.
"Are you really eager at the thought of
being beaten half to death and then nailed to a board and hung up to
die by slow asphyxiation over the course of several hours or days? The
Gospels portray Jesus as knowing perfectly well that He would rise
again (Mark 9:31, 10:34), yet praying in agony to avoid the
crucifixion/death experience (Matt. 26:39), ultimately going through
with it out of submission to the Father. It was not an easy decision
for Him by any means."
and that's fine. but there's a difference between being told something, and having that knowledge within you already. and that's where i question the level of Jesus' divine knowledge. i can easily believe that God told him he'd be resurrected, but that he had his moment of doubt. that makes him human, and actually able to sacrifice something. however, i do not believe that Jesus was the equivalent of God while he was alive... otherwise, how could you have doubts about something you already know will happen?
"As for what Jesus gave up-- what didn't
He give up? Existence as God, freedom from pain and suffering, peace,
comfort, reputation, modesty, dignity, respect, the trust of his
friends (Judas, Peter & co.), spiritual connection with God the
Father ("why hast Thou forsaken me?"), and life itself, just to get the
list started. "
first off... the presumption that God could ever lose His divine status tells me that God is not omnipotent. second, He would have given up His existence as a deity when He incarnated as Jesus, not when He died on the cross. third, the rest of the list are all things that can be ascribed to a mortal with no foreknowledge (other than what God told him), and that's exactly what i'm advocating. an omnipotent deity has no need for worldly experiences, but a regular person does.
i think you missed my original point: God can never lose His divine status and knowledge... to do so would undermine the entire faith and call into question what might have happened to existence if something had gone wrong. therefore, God cannot sacrifice anything, because He cannot lose any part of Himself... He can only command others to do so, and reward them accordingly. temporary suffering, IMHO, is not equal compensation for our sins... especially if the one suffering has divine knowledge and knows exactly what it'll feel like, and for how long.
as arrogant as this can possibly sound, i really don't care... this is GOD we're talking about. all love for humanity aside, He is still the single most powerful thing in existence. if i had that kind of status and power and knew i could never lose it, i'd die a thousand times over for all of humanity. and that's specifically why i do not believe Jesus = God... Jesus was a semi-divine man (Son of God) with incredible power who was eventually asked by his Father to sacrifice his wonderful, happy life for all of humanity. for that, i am very thankful.
you want to know why god just cant forgive us cause he likes to make us suffer keep christ in line with some good old fashioned punishiment he never was around alot of women but he sure did get nailed alot!
This line of reasoning reminds me of why I am glad I am not committed to any organized religion.
@LadyLibellule@xanga - Well, the Bible does state that it's message will sound convoluted to most people who are accustomed to thinking in a strongly secular way.
I don't believe Mr. Willow meant that forgive=forget. To put it so simply defeats the purpose of writing such a long article on a complex topic.
Let me share a practical example which I have experienced very recently. I've been a Christian since 5th grade, but in the last two years, my relationship with a very dependent friend deteriorated. I felt as though this person was using me, and my response to that injury was completely hypocritical and cruel.
That was definitely sin, and according to God's perfect justice, I deserve death for it. And for a long time, I've been feeling like the living dead... only going through the motions of being a happy, friendly guy, while inside I knew I was a rotten hypocrite.
This summer I experienced God's forgiveness. In spite of my snowballing failures, I was "blessed" or given a wonderful experience with good people that lifted me out of my doldrums and set me on path to being a better person than ever before. I didn't deserve to have a wonderful summer, nor to feel rejuvenated and new, but it was granted to me anyway by God's grace.
Spiritually, my soul has been completely rescued from it's death penalty, but the fact of the matter is that I still must deal with the everyday consequences of my sin. I'm no longer on speaking terms with that person who was once a friend, and there is still a lot of hurt on my side as well as hers. I can't just say that forgiveness=forgetting because there's no way I can forget what I've been through, nor what hurt I've inflicted. If I were to try and contact that person, I would have great difficulty doing so without reopening the scars that I suffered when the friendship disintegrated-not to mention that my previous attempts to make amends only hurt her more.
I must work everyday to forgive that person for her wrongs, and I wish everyday to receive her forgiveness for my wrongs. But it's still a difficult process and neither of us are ready to work things out just yet. So in the meantime, all I have is God's forgiveness to push me to be a better friend to those that are still around me now. And let me tell you, God's forgiveness is enough.
I'm so thankful that my life is in the shape it's in now. I'm working hard to be proactive in reaching out to others and appreciating their value as human beings (which I had failed to do previously). In doing so, I am experiencing God's forgiveness in practical everyday concerns as well as in the spiritual sense. I feel more confident than before, and that confidence helps me be more open and honest with people that I used to avoid or shy away from.
This is a confidence that can only come from knowing that I don't have to carry the burden of my past mistakes. I already tried that and it caused the destruction of that friendship. I was blinded by my ambition to "compensate" for past failures, and lost sight of my original good intentions. Then, when I burned out, I behaved wrongly towards that friend and everything fell apart.
It's by experience that I learn what forgiveness means, and it actually does make sense.
Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this post- thorough yet readable, and so relevant. :)
This is VERY good. I'm sending it to one of my friends who has been asking a lot of questions about God. :)
Yes. thank you. That's what I thought you were trying to say
.
You have a unique way of expressing it.
Well done. I like your explaination of the differing greek words.
Wonderful! Very well said.
I'll be honest. I didn't read all of this, or even very much of it. I imagine it is a good response. I just wanted to state that Hebrews is a book written to the Jews to pretty much explain this. So the book of Hebrews is a good place for supplemental reading.
Cheerio!
I think that was an excellent explanation.
@michael21582@xanga - the problem that stood out to me the most with the original post was exactly the same one that WasaiWarrior had. and quite frankly, i don't think your response made much sense.
to me it sounds like you're saying that god was somehow injured/hurt/damaged/pained by our sin. so somehow justice for the pain we've caused him = death, which says to me that his pain was somewhat equivalent to death. but instead of putting us to death, he kills himself for justice. this means that he's paid twice! why suffer again when you've already been hurt once? why not just forgive after the initial damage was done?
oh, and btw, in regards to your last sentence, creating a place like hell in the first place is doing something much less than love.
But God is God...why can't the debt be erased completely without anything or anyone having to pay it? And who or what is that debt to, exactly?
@Alqez@xanga - I appreciate your honesty. I understand what you're saying and I've thought the same things myself. This is a hard thing to understand, and you're asking the right questions. I grew up in a church where I was presented with a picture of a mean, angry God to keep me in line. I've struggled a lot with that and still do to some extent. But God is not angry and mean, in fact sometimes He's a little to nice for me. He's so nice that He allows people who are created as material 'pictures' of His immaterial reality, to do pretty much whatever they want with their lives. If they want they can spit in His face, or they can embrace Him and love Him. He allows those who reject Him to reject Him and He even makes a place for them where they won't have to be bothered by Him or any of His good things. I've heard it said that the fires of Heaven burn hotter than the fires of Hell. Those in Hell would rather be there than in Heaven. They'll say "Its better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
Yes God is hurt when we sin. Much of His hurt comes from His love for us and what it does to us when we sin. He created His universe to be a certain way, if you slow down for a little while, get into nature and look around at it, you might catch a glimpse. He can't allow His universe to be hijacked by those who want to use and abuse it for their own self-centered purposes. He made it and people for a purpose, a good purpose beyond our wildest dreams, and nothing will stand in the way of that. He is temporarily hurt by our sin, but ultimately He must be satisfied or else, like I said before He would cease to be Himself. We are repulsed when we hear the idea of God demanding satisfaction, but that is because everyone we've come across in our lives who demanded satisfaction had bad intentions. God's intentions are good and perfect, but He won't force them on us.
God is 3 person's, when He punished sin on the cross He wasn't whipping His own back, God the Father judged His Son, and He suffered as anyone would who had a loved one who was in pain. God the Son obeyed the Father out of His love for Him and free will because He knew it was the only way for us to be made right again. We were the ones who deserved judgment, but we couldn't bear it, He didn't deserve it but He could bear it. He bore it for us and rose from the dead, He couldn't be held down by the final consequence of sin which is death.
@LadyLibellule@xanga - I think we're on the same page on this one...
The teachings of religion sure have to make a lot of excuses to justify themselves.
If it's so true, it should just make sense.
a conditional forgiveness isn't forgiveness at all...
it's leverage.
excellent!
Thank you for the clear and concise explanation. I hope a lot of people who are currently confused about this issue read it and understand.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Once again, the issues you raise are too deep to fully explore in a comment. I don't completely agree with you, but I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.
For myself, I like the way that it's put in Philippians 2:1-11: Jesus "was in very nature God," but he voluntarily chose to "empty Himself," (Gk. kenosis) temporarily giving up the right to exercise His divine attributes and thus making Him susceptible to the weaknesses of humanity. Thus He was still God, but was able to experience suffering, temptation, death, uncertainty, and so on. Perhaps that's not entirely opposite to what you were getting at.
Peace.