by
mrs violet One day a man dies, who was a devout Christian. Saint Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates and begins to give him a tour of Heaven. As the tour goes on, Saint Paul points out all the different Christians. "There's the Catholics, there's the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians", and so forth. As they walk they come across a group off in the distance by themselves. Saint Paul motions for the man to come closer and whispers. "Now, for this next group, we need to be really quiet. They are the Baptists and they think they're the only ones in Heaven."
*badoom doom*
Have you ever wondered what it will be like in heaven, when all the denominations and peoples of the world come together? Obviously the joke above is just that, a joke. Yet it does encapsulate what sometimes happens in the Church. Our interpretations and theological interpretations keep us separated rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ bringing us together.
Now I am not for a moment supporting a compromised, watered down gospel here by any means, but I have wondered if we can not get along here on earth with our brothers and sisters in the Lord will we even make it to heaven?
In Luke 10, Jesus has this conversation with a man.
27He(the man) answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."How as Christians do we reconcile this on a practical level with the divisions that exist in the Church? How does false teaching impact this? Is it possible to still show love while agreeing to disagree?
Comments (80)
When the Lord has testified to my spirit of some truth, it is difficult to understand how others cannot see it (not that I know everything). We are all at different levels of spiritual maturity and the Lord will give to us what we are able to receive and willing to live. We will be rewarded (many mansions) by how we live what we are given. He is the way and bridges the gap we cannot cross without him. He has confirmed to me that every person who has ever lived will have a full chance to hear, know, and accept his entire truth before the final judgment.
i heard that one group of christians always criticize about this and that. even beauty is said to be fault.
"To dwell above with the saints we love,
Oh, that will be glory!
But to dwell below with the saints we know,
Well, that's another story."
--Ray C. Stedman
If you read the actual bible, we're all going to hell. Virtually all christians are fornicators for example, the bible says they won't go to heaven.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkxw8rKneiA&feature=related
I think people are way too worked up over denominational issues. I highly doubt Christ is in heaven going, "No, no, the Methodists are the only ones that get it. The rest of you are just stupid."
Nor is he going, "Heh, those Catholics know what they're doing." In the grand scheme of things, I don't think He cares that much what denomination you belong to. There's bigger, more important things to be worrying about, you know.
I don't think we can align ourselves with everyone who claims to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself said that not everybody who cries, "Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
We just should recognize Christ where he resides. It is more than obvious when you get to really know people what is inside their hearts.
I would say treat all people like you would have them treat you. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not. Be kind, don't grind.
All through First John we read how if we are in Christ we will love the brethren. That is one of the greatest proofs of our salvation. If we are in Christ, we are born of the same seed as other Christians are, and we are in the same family with them. So as children of God it would be totally unnatural for us not to love God's children, not to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. For example:
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. I John 3:14-15.
If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. I John 4:20-21.
We certainly cannot compromise essential doctrine...man is sinful...God is holy...our sin must be punished by a holy God...we cannot save ourselves...God sent Christ to take the punishment we deserved and we are saved by grace through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice. We cannot add to or subtract anything from Christ and Him crucified. His sacrifice is both necessary and sufficient for our salvation. Salvation is all of God. We can't require any human works for salvation. Nor can we open the door to say there are multiple ways to God.
It is hard because certainly most Christians hold certain doctrines as important, but we need to put aside those things that are non-essentials for the sake of unity in the Body, so we come alongside one another and work for the Kingdom of God, rather than our own denominations. The world continues to see the Church divided, so no wonder our witness is so impotent. Jesus told us in John 13 and 17 that the world would know we are His disciples and would know the Father had sent Him as they saw us loving one another.
It is one of my pet peeves when people from various denominations elevate their denomination above their relationship to Christ. They say, "I'm a _____ (fill in any denominational name)," rather than saying, "I'm a follower of Christ."
This problem is not new. (See I Cor. 3:4-9.) Also read these words Paul wrote to the church at Corinth:
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, or I follow Cephas, or I follow Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I Cor. 1:10-13.
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity.
I realized a long time ago that the issue is not denominational differences. It is differences of the heart. It is a heart issue between God and mankind, and we can get distracted by denominations. The real issue is: "IS IT PERSONAL?".
If you have no relationship with God and are depending upon a Sunday church attendance for salvation and eternal life, then it doesn't matter WHAT denomination you attend or claim to belong to.
Of course we should always show love in all we do and say, but I fail that one most times. This is such a serious issue that it needs to be fully addressed, and that's hard to do here.
Now false teachers have a very special place designed for them. God's judgement is very harsh on them. "... just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master (Jesus) Who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves".(2Peter2:1)
The rest of chapter 2 also applies to it.
@lomal@xanga - Yup........
@agnophilo@xanga - Quite so. That's why I'm glad the actual Bible follows that statement by saying that going to heaven depends on what Jesus did, not what we did. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
It depends of obedience as well. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14) That includes baptism by PROPER authority (see Hebrews 5:4), as well as proper receipt of the Holy Ghost, i.e. through the laying on of hands (see Acts 8:17-19).
@agnophilo@xanga - I have to go with Pass_the_Aura on this. As mere humans, we cannot hope to grasp the full law, we have all sinned yet God saves sinners. That's why Christ's atoning sacrifice was so important.
Ephesians 2:8-9
1st John 2:2
Galatians 2:20-21
I would encourage you to read them.
@lomal@xanga - I believe this also. And what disturbs me most, is that people will one day remember the words that were spoken to them whenever it was, and have such deep regret if they denied the Truth when it was told to them.
I am always torn between wanting the "fulfillment of the Gentiles" to end and yet wanting as many people as possible to accept the gift of eternal life.
@J_Goldens_Shadow@xanga - There will be obedience as a result of our conversion but our obedience does not earn us salvation. Obedience will come from Christ's imparted righteousness in us, from His new life at work in us. Obedience is a result of our salvation, an evidence or proof of Christ indwelling the believer. But obedience is not the means by which we gain eternal life.
Re: Baptism. What about the thief on the cross who was never baptized? Jesus told him today you will be with me in paradise....Jesus Himself said this man would be in heaven without baptism. Baptism is an outward sign of the inner work of God. The person who is baptized is already a believer in Christ, already regenerated, already born again. Baptism confirms the work God has already done in the heart.
The Spirit is promised to all who believe. In fact, we can't be believers apart from the work of the Spirit of God. E.g.-see Romans 8. I think as believers we can agree to disagree about how the Spirit may be manifested beyond our conversion.
When we tack on things to Christ's sacrifice, we are saying Christ was not enough for our salvation, that God's shed blood and God's broken body was insufficient or inadequate to save us. We are saying that Christ's imputed righteousness is not enough.
Yet read John 3:16: whosoever believes will have eternal life.
Not whosoever is baptized, or whosoever receives the Spirit in a particular way. Whosoever BELIEVES. By faith Christ's righteousness is credited to us.
Eph. 2.8-9: we are saved by grace through faith and that not of
ourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest no one should boast.
Not of works. Not of obedience, not of baptism....
We simply cannot compromise on the work of Christ which is all-sufficient for our salvation. I can agree to disagree about many other things, but we cannot lessen or minimize the necessity of Christ's all-sufficient work for us. When we tack this and that on to the work of Christ, we are saying Christ is not sufficient and His blood was not enough to atone for our sins. Christ and Him crucified is the one essential thing which we cannot add to, or subtract from, which I previously mentioned.
@naphtali_deer@xanga -
@naphtali_deer@xanga -
I second both your posts. Thank you.
@Pass_the_Aura@xanga - Yeah I forgot jesus was the universal get out of jail free card.
Personally I hold to the view that it's possible for people to be at differing levels, differing places in their walk with God. Some will grasp certain concepts more easily and others may not have been made aware of these same concepts until much later. I think our rudimentary belief in God should be what binds us. Doesn't the southern Baptist, the pentacostal, the Assembly of Godder, the Catholic, all worship the same God? they just have different views of him. Like seeing different facets of the same gem.
Psalm 133
How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!
It is like precious oil poured on the head, running down on the beard, running down on Aaron's beard, down upon the collar of his robes.
It is as if the dew of Hermon were falling on Mount Zion. For there the Lord bestows his blessing, even life forevermore.
Yes, how true, if we can't get along here on earth how can we get along in heaven. God Bless! Lisa
@naphtali_deer@xanga - Wonderful response and clearly stated.
@agnophilo@xanga -  Yes, Jesus is the universal get of jail free card, so to speak. I don't know if I quite like that phrase but I think it is correct in many ways.Â
But I would say it's even more than a get out of jail card, it's the get off death row card/a get out of hell card for Jesus not only paid the jail time for me He died the death I deserved. Jesus Christ came not to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved for all who do not believe are condemned already. Apart from belief in Christ, we are all headed for hell, for eternal condemnation/damnation.
That's the glory and beauty of the Gospel. We do nothing but believe (and even that belief is a gift of God) and God wipes away the slate of offenses against us. Our sins were once scarlet but now are white as snow. We could do nothing to atone for our sin. We could do nothing to cleanse ourselves from sin. We could do nothing to change our sinful heart so we might no longer sin. Jesus did all that. While we were yet sinners, He died for us. He took our place. That's why grace is amazing. We did nothing whatsoever to deserve to have our sins atoned for and passed over by a holy God. God is perfect and holy has every right to condemn us and judge us for our sins, but when we believe that Christ took our place, He passes over our sins. The just Jesus died for the unjust. Christ who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Yet in passing over our sins, God is just because the punishment had been paid. God's justice has been completely satisfied in Christ. And God Himself is the justifier because He Himself was the means through which we are saved.
God now looks at us and no longer sees our sins but sees Christ's righteousness. That's the Gospel. And it's Good News once we see we are sinners with no other recourse. But it we don't see our sin, we see no need for a Savior from our sin. So it seems to be foolishness and totally unnecessary.
Salvation seems to be foolishness, except to the mind and eyes God has opened to see and receive His grace.
Then to us who believe, who have received that wondrous grace, it is truly glorious, it is the power of salvation and the wisdom of God.
All that said, this belief is not mere intellectual assent that says, "I believe," and then allows us to go on living any type of life we choose (see Paul's words about this in Romans 6: "What shall we say?then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"). True belief bears fruits worthy of repentance, through the life of Christ in us. In his first epistle, John talks a lot about this as does Paul in Romans 6-8. We can no longer remain in/continue in sin. True belief will manifest itself in a life wholly given to God. True belief sees that our lives are no longer our own but that we have been saved to bring glory to God in our lives, so we no longer live for ourselves but for Him who died for us.
@naphtali_deer@xanga - If someone did an injustice to you, and their brother or cousin offered to go to prison in their place, would you accept that as just punishment?
The idea that an innocent person can be tortured to death to relieve you of your sins is positively immoral.
If someone's father was a rapist and did not believe in christianity, would you suggest that their son or daughter had to be forgiven of the sin of raping people? Would you propose that she be put in prison as a rapist?
That is also a positively immoral doctrine, the idea that we are to be blamed for things we are innocent of, and punished for them.
If you had a child and were somehow separated from them, and they thought you were dead, would you want to punish them for not beliving in you? I mean if it's their honest opinion. Would you seek vengeance on them?
Another positively immoral doctrine.
There are lots and lots of positively immoral doctrines in the crucifixion/salvation scheme, not to mention that you're praising human sacrificial murder, something you would certainly think was barbaric and evil in every other religion.
I grew up in Michigan. We had all sorts of religions in my school district, Catholic, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, there was even a Jewish kid who rode my school bus. Everybody got along. Now I live in the Deep South and it is about 85% Southern Baptist. They are distrustful of >all the above religions>. And yes, they think they are the only ones going to Heaven.
Shelby Stone...The Gelding by Mystic Moon Press 9/1/08
@agnophilo@xanga - which is why God says....
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
It was God's idea to send Jesus, not man's. Your issue is with God.
@J_Goldens_Shadow@xanga - Could you tell me a bit more about what you believe about Hebrews 5:4? From what I can tell it has to do with Jesus being our great high priest, and from what I can tell biblically Jesus never baptized anyone.
@mrsviolet - Sorry, but you have to justify your beliefs. They contradict your own morality and common sense, and that's a problem.
You can't just ignore it by saying "it's true because it's true because it's true" or "it's good because it is". Well, you can, if you don't care at all about truth.