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goodbyesickan So I heard the old standby "love the sinner, hate the sin" the other day. I have to say it had been a while since I had heard that particular little gem. The idea behind it is that supposedly you can love a person without approving of what they do.
Like a lot of society sanctioned lies, its deception does not lie in what is says or literally means, but in how it is used to make an unacceptable desire acceptable -in this case, hatred of homosexuals. The phrase is used as a rhetorical way of separating ourselves from those we don't like, those whose exile we feel we need to rationalize. If we truly "hate the sin, love the sinner," we should treat the "sin" of homosexual actions the same way we treat every other thing we regard as sin.
But of course we don't treat every sin the same way. Do we hold rallies against illegal music downloads? Do we protest that the military has no rules against enlisting greedy people? Do we march in front of city hall demanding an end to envy? Do we teach our children to hold up signs reading "I Cor 6:19 -- GOD HATES FATTIES!"? No, we don't. Why not? Because, for the most part, we understand that sharing the love of God is far more important than pointing out every little detail we perceive to be a flaw. We know from our own walk with God that as we learn to know His will, we increase our ability to discern FOR OURSELVES how He would have us live.
No, we do not protest every sin. We choose to protest not based on the will of God, but based on our emotional reactions. We protest those things that disgust us on an emotional, subjective level -not always on a spiritual or righteous level.
"But THEY flaunt it!" You say. Do they? Or, because it weirds you out so much, is it the thing you go out of your way to notice? Even if someone does "flaunt" the way they live, who are you to make judgment? Why do you think you can control others?
If you blow your top because someone is not living as you want them to, you should thank them. That's right, thank them -because God has used them to reveal the sin of pride in your heart. Pride for thinking that somehow you have the right to stand between another person and God.
"It is not my opinion, God says it is sin!" You might say. Well, let me remind you again that you do not have this visceral reaction to every little sin you ever see, so there is something else going on here besides just righteous anger.
When Jesus came across a group ready to pass judgment on a certain young woman, Christ declared "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Once the accusers were gone, Christ spoke to the woman in private. It is between God and the individual -and if Christ Himself did not condemn her, what right do you have to EVER condemn anyone?
God is love. Jesus is the Truth. Truth and love can be a tricky balance, especially when you believe that someone is heading down a path that will hurt them. But as important as truth is, LOVE COMES FIRST. The greatest commandments are about love. Without love, truth is worthless -a clanging cymbol. Work on love. As you do, you will be humbled by how much you did not understand about the people you previously judged.
God did not win us over by shouting at us, but through love. If you want to change someone's life, show them pure love. Leave the chastising up to God. Nothing you say is going to work anyway. Only God can change a heart. You are powerless to change anyone's life but your own. You are not loving someone if you are trying to control them. Not even God does that.
Do you agree with the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin"? How do you try to love people, despite feeling they are in the wrong?
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Comments (203)
@IMChurchmouse@xanga - Thank you! And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
@point_of_no_R3turn@xanga - The bible is full of examples of where we are told to make judgements on people here is one :
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16
You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
The idea that we should not judge anyone because that is Gods job came from among others the false prophet Benny Hinn so that people would think twice about exposing his heresy.....As i said the bible (Gods Word) is full of examples where we are told to be carefull and to make judgement....Don't blindly follow people on TV read your bible!!
- dale
@PerilousTimes@xanga - Your point about Paul isn't really relevant for these times. Paul was a student of the scriptures, that is how he knew about his sin. It's not the same as someone shouting in the streets that he is a sinner and he is going to burn in hell.
And as for Romans 10:14... you left out the end of that passage. "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news." The good news, not the condemnation.
@IMChurchmouse@xanga - whoa... blind guide... ok... someone obviously is taking my comment as a negative turn... i'm trying to dialouge here... good night yo...
ok... first off... it's not ranting... it's a POV and to use the phrase loosely "devil's advocate"... second, you're reading into my comment TOO much which i'll admit is rather hard to do since we aren't vocalizing our comments to each other face to face which is the downside of commenting/IMming/text messaging etc.... third... name-slinging gets you nowhere and i do have to say that a servant of the Lord never needs to strive and yet you're sitting there calling me names when in no way shape or form did I do such... then telling me i'm slinging mud?! bro, seriously, take the stick out of your butt and just converse... talk... no need to go off on a tirade because I just happen to turn the dialouge around to look at every angle...
now to go back to the topic at hand... yes, the HS does use the Law... but there is also the verse where people need to HEAR, and how can they HEAR if noone TELLS them, and who can tell them but those who KNOW the gospel message....
are we supposed to be doing God's job? Did He not employ us into His service to preach and teach and MAKE disciples? How does one become a disciple... when someone TELLS them how to come to Christ... and what does coming to Christ entail? Last time I checked, it involves the turning from sin, embrace the cross, looking to Jesus as Lord, savior and Treasure, and receiving Him right?? Ultimately, God is the One Who does the work, you and I are just supposed to be messangers... which is all i'm saying... so in essence, love for the sinner is delivering the truth of their sinful state by way of God's Law but then introducing them to Jesus Christ... the One Who does save...
and THAT is what God WILL LET LAST... trust ME...
@IMChurchmouse@xanga -
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
Would it be loving not to mention these verses when trying to witness to someone ?
@point_of_no_R3turn@xanga - everyone who doesn't believe is condemned already Scripture says... that's basically equivalent to someone w/ terminal cancer suffering from terminal denial... and until they see a doctor who will bring them to see the light, they won't accept it...
the condemnation ppl feel in the world apart from Christ is due to the severity of the Law... Galatians states that the Law is a tutor to bring us to Christ... but you gotta bring them the mirror of the Law as Paul states...
when an evangelist tells ppl they are going to hell... that's not condemnation... that IS TRUTH... they are... he's just bringing to light the knowledge of their doomed state... just as it was with you and I... the difference is.... we saw it and turned towards the Savior... knowing we sinned against a Holy God and repented and turned towards Him away from our self-destructive path.... all the Law does is show us our need for The Savior... Jesus is the One Who Saves, not our bringing the mirror obviously...
as far as the good news... it's only good when you know what's bad... and it's really bad to know that you're on a path of total destruction to know there's a way out... the essence of the Gospel is that... sinners are going down, Jesus provides the way up; receive Jesus and repent of sin and embrace Him as Lord and Treasure and for sure you'll be going up...
now is that condemnation or is that really good news? you tell me...
@PerilousTimes@xanga - Ummm... what if I told you I have NEVER watched a preacher on TV? Don't pretend you know me, please.
Besides, I said we should not judge non-Christians. Please, I'd like you to share more of these, so called examples. Because your last one is irrelevant, because the false prophets claimed to be Christians. They knew what they were doing was wrong, it is not the same as condemning non-Christians.
@leadworshipper82 - Amen to your comments ....We live in a time where people can become "Christians" without turning from sin ....All they have to do is say "I love Jesus" and voila they are on their way to heaven ...sadly there will be many dissapointed people come judgement day that have not forsaken their sin because someone failed to mention the word "Repent" :
Mat 7:22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Thanks again for your comments
@PerilousTimes@xanga - Good comment, I agree completely with you. It's not being judgemental to point out the sin to people and let them know they're going to hell living that way. Jesus and every one of the apostle's did it that way. Why don't we? Why not tell the world they're going to hell for such and such? They need to know somehow! Again good comment!
@leadworshipper82 - Okay, but how much fruit have you seen from your fire and brimstone street preaching? How many people stop and say, "oh, thank you for telling me the truth, now that you're yelling at me, I would love to accept Christ as my savior?"
At my church, we have connections with a drug and alcohol rehabilitation program (a secular one, may I point out). We go to the houses once a week and invite them to our service. There we share a salvation message and invite them to accept Christ. No hellfire, no hate, just sharing the love of Christ. And every week people accept Christ as their savior. Because we showed them love. Then, after they have come to Christ, we point out their sins. And, they are usually very gracious and accepting of our help.
@PerilousTimes@xanga - we're to discern the fruit, but not to judge. Do I need to show you Jesus' response to the woman who was caught in adultery (how odd she committed it alone....)?
I don't think that we withhold the truth at all, and I never implied that we should. I will tell someone the truth...with love and consideration and mercy. With tears in my eyes as Paul said. I will point out that they are in a fix because of bad choices, and that there is a remedy that comes with options for healthier living.
I won't slam them with my arrogance of how damned they are...that's the devil's job, and he does that well enough that I shouldn't be volunteering to help 'im.
'nuff said.
@point_of_no_R3turn@xanga - A false preacher is not a Christian....Please show me where the bible says we are not to judge a non Christian please ?
thanks
@leadworshipper82 - Oh, and your analogy about the cancer patient actually proves MY point. The patient has to accept the doctor first, then the doctor can tell them that they are dying.
One thing I'd like to say. Jesus came to save not to condemn right? Jesus also said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. You can't just say "I love you Jesus" and be saved. That is a good start though. It's not judgemental to tell sinner (yes, you were and some here may be, a sinner) that they're going to hell living that way! It's loving and helping them to show them the way as someone once showed you the way. Read the Bible, that's how they did it.
@PerilousTimes@xanga - Have you ever read 1 Corinthians?
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 "It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside your church. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you.'"
I think that is pretty clear.
@PerilousTimes@xanga - granted yea... but that is to a point where if someone does profess to love Jesus...
well...
i can take this a couple different ways... for a person to geninuely say, "I love Jesus" is the mark of a person's conversion because only the Holy Spirit's power will allow the genuinity of that comment to be rooted in that person's heart... remember... one who has had the Savior revealed to them is in fact a genuine work of the Holy Spirit so for a person to say they love Jesus, if they mean, I would embrace as family... due in part because noone can really love Jesus and say they do w/o the marking of the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives... then comes the judging you mentioned we are called to do... watch for the apple to grow on the apple tree so to speak...
i do agree though that many who call themselves "Christians" are in fact very shady... 80% of america says they are Christians... though my thing is now, "WHERE ARE YOU GUYS???!!!"
Now i do have to note though, that we cannot justify a person's conversion... all we have is their words... and as a Christian, we have to accept and embrace their confession of faith... because as far as we know, until something happens where the proof is in the pudding, they are family... like for instance... I will go on to say Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer (ooo i'm gonna get flack for this one LOL) are all part of the family... now, when it comes to their theology... i would have to say that it's like your sister or brother telling you the wrong answer to a math problem... much of their theology is off... which is why ignore them or not preference to listen to them regardless of them being on Christian TV, radio or even in Christian bookstores... but i will say that they are part of the family.... as far as I'm aware...
i cannot go and ultimately place a judgement on someone's profession of faith... all I can do is what Scripture mandates... if someone professes Christ, embrace him/her, judge their fruits, if the fruit doesn't fit the tree, confront... by yourself first, with another second, with the pastor third, to the church fourth, and if anything beyond that, cast them out of the church till they show the fruits of repentance... then watch God move into their lives....
but I cannot go and pronounce judgement on their profession of faith which I think CAN be a danger to do... which does result of pharisaism... a danger of becoming so religious you can't laugh... so to speak...
@leadworshipper82 - good points...I like!
@point_of_no_R3turn@xanga - ok... first off your average joe today won't do what you said granted... lol... but...
is it hellfire preaching and shouting? or is it being passionate enough to pronounce the gospel to dying people who are walking on???? if I was on the path to hell... and someone was louder than normal talking about sin and hell... would I be mad??? YES, WHAT SELF-RIGHTOUES ARROGANT PEA-BRAIN CLOSE-MINDED FREAK IS TELLING ME I'M GOING HELL?? WHAT RIGHT DOES HE/SHE HAVE??? I'M A GOOD PERSON... and then the skilled evangelist would show me my sin... OH I'D BE PISSED SURE... but then to realize my sinful state against a holy God... (ultimately the Holy Spirit will reveal that to me)... then introduce the Savior...
i'd like for you to notice how I said the SKILLED evangelist... ranting and raving without telling people of the Cross gets the evangelist nowhere... hell is needed to be told to show the glory of the Savior... because He is the One Who gets them out of it if they recieve Him...
and my doctor analogy doesn't prove your point... the analogy isn't about whether the cancer patient accepts the doctor... the doctor still holds the record of the cancer whether the patient (sinner) accepts the message from the doctor (the hellfire preacher) or not...
@point_of_no_R3turn@xanga - ummmm....those verses are in context to REBUKING immorality... some dood in this chapter is sleeping with his mom (verse 1) and noone is doing anything about it... then in verse 9 Paul is telling this jacked up church to not associate with anything or anyone immoral in the church... and that judging as Paul wrote in this chapter about judging outsiders in the church... he wrote in others letters (which speak about the complete unity of the NT) states that those who believe not are condemed already (is it Paul or did Jesus say that, I can't remember)... people outside are already judged, they just dont' know it yet... all we gotta do is show them what is already true of them...
@IMChurchmouse@xanga - so in conclusion... i would have to say that... ummm... u owe me an apology for calling me a blind guide, a mud-slinger, and what else... oh yea... a venom-spitter...
sun goes down in 5 hours chief... lol
@leadworshipper82 - no apologies owed for doing what you said: calling sin what it is. I'm just proud of the way you found the right path in the end.
But if you need me to say that I think you are able to bless with the same mouth that you curse with, I can do that. And I will hope that you can bless more than the other as your heart softens.
Honest and sincere Love to you, bro.
@IMChurchmouse@xanga - right path??? wait... what right path are you talking about? Truth is harsh granted... but truth IS love at times...
bless with the same mouth that you curse with??? dood... wait... what are you talking about????
Ghandi actually "coined" this phrase...so I'm not even so sure why so many Christians use it all the time. I was actually reading some stuff from Mark Driscoll lately, and he talked about how God actually hates sinners (check out the book of Psalms). We try to separate someone's actions from who they are, but they really aren't separate. Our actions come out of who we are.
i have NEVER EVER heard it said better! thanks so much for posting this. love in Christ, Jen
Since human beings are prone to sin (concubiscence caused by original sin) if we all hated each other for our sinfulness, the world would be in a state of total war. And, actually, there is a lot of war going on out there. And forget Mark Driscoll. What God created he proclaimed to be "very good." So it is impossible for God to hate anything he created for God does not deny himself. Check out Genesis. And there are Psalms that tell about how patient God is with EVERYONE, wanting dearly that sinners repent.
The Christian way is to be civil with everyone. Being civil with a wicked person is salutory and it is the loving thing to do. HOWEVER, civility doesn't mean acceptance in any way. Civility is loving, respectful behavior.
The rub comes with things like the "gay agenda" or the "agenda of the Left." These agendas are wicked from the standpoint of Christianity and their institution is leading to the unraveling of Western Civilization.
So though on a personal level a Christian is bound to be civil with those who promulgate wickedness, wickedness must be recognized for what it is and be rejected and deprived of its institution into civil, Christian society.