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miss poppyAnother basic concept of Christianity that many seem to have missed can be expressed as a logical syllogism:
1. Humans desire happiness and pleasure.
2. God's being is the source of all happiness and pleasure.
3. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to pursue God wholeheartedly.
John Piper calls this concept Christian hedonism, and his main statement is, "God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in Him."
Why is it that we so often attribute undesirable qualities to God, but we also recognize that He commands us to desire Him?
This won't work. Humans are not wired to want someone who harms them or treats them badly. We are wired to desire those who are desirable to us in some way. God made us. It would have been ridiculous for Him to command us to do something that can't be done.
Instead, "We love because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19
I think I know a lot of people who wish they desired God and feel very guilty because they can't seem to want Him as much as they feel they should. I have done this as well. The truth is, though, that when we have a real encounter with the heartbreakingly attractive Person of God, we cannot help but desire Him. When we are touched by God's love, mercy, beauty, tenderness, justice, comfort, glory, majesty, and intimacy, it becomes inconceivable for us not to desire Him (though our feelings will always wax and wane).
I suppose what I am trying to say is that if an object is desirable to us, we will desire it automatically. If it is not desirable to us, we won't desire it. Desire cannot be manufactured.
When people pray, "God, help me to want You more," I think they often actually mean, "God, I think you're mad at me, and your holiness makes me too scared to approach you. I feel really yucky when I pray to you. However, the Bible says I should love You and want to be with You. If I was more spiritual, maybe I would want You even though You're not nice to be around. Help me to get there so You won't need to smite me."
However, I believe the actual heart of "God, help me to want You more," should be this: "God, I notice that I'm not desiring You. That means I must not be seeing You for who You really are-the most delightful Person I could ever choose to be with in the whole universe. Show me your delightful character so that I will fall more in love with You and my heart will hunger for Your presence."
I also think this issue offers clues to the way God feels about us. If we wonder whether we have value in God's sight, we can easily find an answer in the fact that He desires us. God is a Person, and people simply don't desire that which they find undesirable; that would violate the logical law of noncontradiction. If God wants us, He must see something desirable, something He values, in us.
I am often burdened for those, both saved and unsaved, who have yet to know the incomparable and indescribable experience of God's tangible, loving presence. Knowing Him begets desire because He is the epitome of all that is desirable. It's not enough to have head knowledge of this. Deep beliefs of the heart are what determine whether or not we see God as desirable. If we don't, we can be sure that the root is our flawed concept of a perfectly desirable God, and He longs to replace that faulty image with Himself.
Do you ever feel like you don't really see God for all He is? Or ever feel like He's mad or displeased with you?
Comments (84)
@agnophilo@xanga - I'm pesky that way, I guess. I see humor in everything. I don't mean that there is anything at all to make fun of in what you say, but that the sheer single-mindedness of your message across different posts and conversations makes me enjoy the familiarity. No offense is intended, and I apologize if it seems that way.
I like you. I don't mean that weirdly. I mean that I like that fact that you stick around and continue to argue. I find it interesting that you care about this place and the beliefs of the people who post here. Your ongoing contribution here is surprising and intriguing. I am also interested by your seeming anger at faith. I enjoy engaging with you.
Feel free to ignore me. I like life, and I like debating. I also appreciate consistency.
@agnophilo@xanga - The thing is, though, sometimes my relationship with God brings me intense pain. I don't love God just because I get happy feelings. I interact with Him, and He interacts as a person. Some days are filled with joy; others have brought me the most intense inner pain I've ever experienced.
It's not about achieving good feelings. It's about getting to know a person, with all of the ebbs and flows of personal relationship. It's not about achieving a certain state of peace or happiness. It's about loving another person through every stage of relationship and seeking his mind and heart.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I am only angered by blind faith, as it is usually just an excuse to be unreasonable and lie to oneself.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I never said all christians are hedonists, I said anyone, christian, atheist or anything else, can be a hedonist. He had no reason to single out atheists.
@agnophilo@xanga - I agree with you.
@Pickwick12@xanga - About hedonism or faith?
@agnophilo@xanga - Of course, the definition you use for blind faith is your definition, not the definition of the person who has faith.
Second, why should that be cause for anger? I'm not insulting you. I really am curious. I personally believe that Scientology is untrue, and I have a hard time understanding why people adhere to it. But that doesn't make me angry. I assume your beliefs about Christianity are comparable to mine about Scientology. For you, what causes non-belief to become anger?
@agnophilo@xanga - Hedonism. You haven't quite gotten me on faith yet
(meant humorously!)
Believers and non-believers can feel the same sensations -- we both live in the natural world. This is not what divides us. I can't understand what goal an atheist has (the natural world is endless change, but with no goal). The Christian does what he does for Jesus, with the ultimate goal being Salvation. I believe that the whole cosmos is involved in this ultimate goal. This is beyond science, which is concerned with the physical world. Science is unable to provide meaning in our lives, and it can't explain why we enjoy art and music.
If anything, perhaps the feeling of longing is more appropriate in the God question. Longing hints that we came from somewhere else, and that our destiny is, likewise, else where. If there is no God longing is illogical, no?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I do place God above pleasure, but to me, God's Being provides ultimate pleasure. If you dislike the term hedonism for it, then it's fine with me to lose the term. I try to love God for His sake; the pleasure is an amazing part of experiencing Him.
It's very true that God can be pleased with us even when we are not experiencing pleasure; however, I know that if I am experiencing pleasure because I'm having fellowship and communion with Him, then He is pleased by that. I believe pleasure in Him is a sign of His approval. I'm talking about the specific pleasure of His Being interacting with and filling me. Just because I'm not experiencing that pleasure doesn't mean He's displeased. Relationship with Him contains different feelings and seasons, like relationship with other people.
Thanks for the good discussion.
@Pickwick12@xanga - When people use their religions to avoid accountability in their beliefs and actions.
@Pickwick12@xanga - So I've almost gotten you on faith? : P
@monobeam@xanga - Really, you have so little imagination that you can't imagine what an atheist might want to do with his life? You can't find anything worthwhile to do in this world but try to get into heaven?
I doubt that seriously.
Science is unable to provide us with meaning, yes. But mainly because science doesn't even try to, science explains natural phenomena, PHILOSOPHY deals with meaning and abstract concepts.
Science can't explain why we enjoy art and music? The massive amounts of endorphines being pumped into our brains I'm sure has nothing to do with it...
@agnophilo@xanga - Fair enough, but is it worth enough to get angry over?
@agnophilo@xanga - A tongue-out emoticon! The man is human like the rest of us!
@agnophilo@xanga - Thanks for replying!
I think God has wired human brains to be able to experience spiritual sensations. But if an altered state, or a spiritual feeling, comes from something artificial, what good is it? The feeling's great, but then it ends. It's empty.
Followers of Christ can still trust in God and take joy in him in terrible times, even when we don't feel that he's near and don't experience any good spiritual feelings. I guess I'm trying to say that pleasurable spiritual feelings are not the most important thing -- reality is. But the reality of knowing God does bring pleasurable feelings. They go deeper than any religious simulation because they are true and dependable.
@agnophilo@xanga - May I ask you a question? Humor me here. What would God have to do to prove to you that He exists?
@Pickwick12@xanga - It matters, yes.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I use tongue-wag emotocons all the time. And you didn't answer the question. And if I were in a persnickety mood I could jump on you for insinuating that I'm not human because I'm not religious but I will give you the benefit of the doubt : P
@goodnessgraceness@xanga - All kinds of ideas bring those feelings, and the ideas behind things like zen philosophy seem to me to be truer, more logical, more profound and more beautiful than the stories and supernatural claims of christianity and other religions. And the feelings you get from them are based on something very real, like the concept of the Ultimate Reality, and other buddhist philosophies that are so profound and esoteric they can take a lifetime to fully realize.
@Pickwick12@xanga - Well first things first, what exactly is god? Where is he, what's his nature? What effect does he supposedly have on the universe?
You have to define what something is before you can look for evidence that it exists.
I definitely do not value God for who he is and what he is worth. However, I never feel that he is mad at me, I feel that he is dissapointed, which is much much worse.
@agnophilo@xanga - To answer your question, then, given the fact, among other things, that God interacted with me this morning and is the most important person in my life, no, you have never and will never convince me to renounce my faith in him.
@agnophilo@xanga - Take for argument's sake that he is the God of Christianity.
@agnophilo@xanga - Wow, that's the first time someone questioned my imagination -- usually people question my grasp of reality. My statement about goals was not just meant as a personal one, but as a cumulative goal of unity for all humanity. We are one race, shouldn't we be one in spirit as well? Impossible for man; possible for God. My task is to bring you [and everyone else] to heaven. Belief can't be coerced, but each must freely choose God. Now what's worse, my imagination, or my grasp on a materialistic [man-made] reality?
About art and music: endorphines are not happiness. It is the content of the art that conditions the response.