Thursday, 21 August 2008

  • Abrasive Ministry Style- Does it Work or Does it Scare?

    oaktreeby revelifecrew

    advice We receive quite a few messages from people asking for help with certain issues, and oftentimes, we're not sure how to relate or answer the person's question - which is where you guys come in! Every Thursday, we feature a reader's problem/question and leave it open for you guys to offer your two cents. Please feel free to message us here for advice! It can be about anything from parents, to keeping up with devotionals, to unwanted suitors, to difficulty praying without falling asleep. Don't worry, we'll keep you anonymous.

    Today's post is about a sensitive topic. Please be respectful of each other's differences and be civil when expressing your opinion.
     
    The Woodward Dream Cruise just rolled through Metro-Detroit this past Saturday, and an estimated 40,000 classic cars converged onto a 16-mile stretch of Woodward.  With all the horrible things happening in our city this summer, the Dream Cruise is one of our few remaining bright-spots. 

    Unfortunately, a small group of pro-life Evangelists has been viewed locally as casting a shadow on the sunny-day, and even brought their own "special" vehicle: a van covered in color-photographs of aborted babies.  They also carry picket-signs with similar gruesome pictures.  In 2006, a group of them were arrested for picketing at the Super Bowl our city hosted.
     
    They are highly controversial in Metro-Detroit, especially among the Christian community.  I had happened to catch one of the activists on a Christian-radio broadcast last Thursday (August 14), and as I listened to the callers, I noticed they all had the same opinion: this is a good message, but it was the wrong way and the wrong place to get it out. 
     
    The pro-life group argues that the Cruise is the perfect forum for getting their message out; they say abortion is too much "swept under the rug."  Okay, but at such a high-profile event...and in such a grotesque, vivid way?  Does this even work?  Michael Mattia, who heads up this small group, doesn't know.  He says there isn't a way to measure their activities. 
     
    Beyond the perceived blight, however, it's an embarrassment.  Even Believers are saying that this group is "a bunch of fanatical Christians who reflect poorly on the entire faith."  Their actions seem too abrasive for a group of people who are supposed to be loving.  Additionally, for all the Christian criticism of their actions, I have to wonder why this group isn't heeding the advice of their Church family. 
     
    All I can imagine is a woman who had an abortion 20 years ago, who has felt the guilt and shame of the act, has come to Jesus and repented.  Now put her on Woodward in front of one of those images.   How could she not immediately think of her child?  Yes, God has forgiven her, but she still carries with her the knowledge of her actions. 
     
    I was talking to someone in Birmingham today about this, and she told me the van is parked beside the road near an abortion clinic (I believe) which she passes every day on her way into work.  She told me she's even seen people on their knees, facing the building, praying.  At first, she said she was horribly offended and angered; now, she merely views them with disgust.
     
    I personally feel this is a counter-productive method of ministry.  I feel it's too abrasive, and surely there must be a better way of getting this important message out.  One caller to the radio program told how she chose adoption over abortion, and would the group please try having women holding up large pictures of their young children with their adopted-families.  Why not have child holding a sign that says, "I was adopted, not aborted."  I think this might be just as impactful, and certainly less crazy-Evangelical-fanatic. 

    How do you, a group of Christians and non-Christians alike, feel about this style of ministry? What other ways could this group go about getting their message across?

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Comments (72)

  • big_fat_stupid_ugly_seal@xanga

    this type of ministry only pushes people away. how about teaching non-believers about Jesus's LOVE?
  • captain_jaq@xanga

    All that type of thing does is annoy people and sound like background noise. It's like those "God Hates Fags" idiots. No one listens to them because they're so obnoxious, abrasive, and annoying. I know if I saw that abortion van, I'd laugh, snap a picture and later post on my blog about how obnoxious it was.

    It certainly wouldn't turn me pro-life or make me see Jesus.
  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    I would be much more impacted by viewing a live child as mentioned than by viewing a mass of dead tissue.

    You have to pick an appropriate place or time to do things, unless you just want everyone to hate you.
  • bittersunday@xanga

    The way to get that message across is the same way to get ANY message across--with respect.

    Some people are just so fantastically rude, and all that does is push others away.  So you have an opinion.  Good for you.  No one is going to listen to you if you're antagonistic.
  • bLueAnGeL55@xanga

    we have a van that drives around with aborted baby pictures too. It makes people scornful towards people who are pro-life.


    I agree it isn't a good marketing tool. It DOES get the topic out there and it does get people mad about it, which is maybe their intent. I do know that it embarasses me as a Christian when nonbelievers think we are all judgemental and cold like the van people.
  • ToxicWishes@xanga

    A group like that comes to my university every year. And every year the police have to come to break up the fighting. I take the signs as their way of trying to scream "listen to me! I'm important! you'd better listen to me!" and just like screaming, it never works.

    Besides, where in the Bible (or anywhere, for that matter) does it say "anger your neighbor enough and he'll listen to you"?
  • sheepthatsblack@xanga

    with some trepidation, I'd like to expand this even further....

    I go to the University of Michigan, and for as long as anyone can remember, two street preachers always come to the Diag (center/heart of central campus) to preach hellfire and brimstone without hope of salvation....I'm not talking "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God," this is just "Sinners who are all going to Hell!" (Just FYI....I've watched them a collective total of 30 minutes in all the years I've been here and been condemned over 20 times....once I was singled out for smoking...anyways) I've talked to a couple people after-the-fact, and I've been able to show them that not all Christians are like that...but What more can I do?

    How do we, as the Church, deal with our more...abrasively outspoken...bothers and sisters?
  • SwordAndSacrifice@xanga

    Since we all agree that this can't be measured except by our own visceral reactions, and since most of us are Christians who agree with the group in principle, and those who are not Christians and don't agree with the group are largely not in Michigan viewing the images, I would submit that none of us are in effective positions to judge the efficacy or failure of the group's methodology.
  • shanella

    I'd like to throw something out there ... and I'm sure a lot of people might feel uncomfortable about what I'm going to say - I feel uncomfie saying it - but it's just the first thought that popped into my mind when I read the title and then the rest.

    You see ... in the BIble a lot of the prophets went around shouting at people to repent and telling them about the fire and brimstone ... one might even say the new testament guys did that too -- thinking about peter on the day of Pentecost.

    Can we relate these folks with those folks? Personally, the first thing I'd think is that these folks are really just self righteous and that's why they are doing it ... but then again ... who knows?

    just a thought to throw out there.

  • MrZissman@xanga

    I would say it causes more harm than good. Look at what Jesus did. He never went around screaming and ranting like a madman, but everything was done with love and intelligence behind it. 
  • agnophilo@xanga

    It's an attempt to override rational thought with emotion.  To effectively neutralize the one thing that separates us from monkeys and make civilized, open, honest discussion impossible.

    You can't scream baby-killer and expect to have an enlightened conversation.

    The above tactics are the result of people getting it into their head that they're 100% right beyond the shadow of a doubt, a common side-effect of religious enthusiasm.  But it makes discussion and mutual respect impossible and is therefore destructive.
  • WasaiWarrior@xanga

    To be perfectly technical, Biblical prophets hardly said things that were unabrasive: Jonah with his terrorist prophecies of city-wide destruction, Hosea with his prostitute wife of shame, Samson with the jawbone of death, John the Baptist with his libelious "brood of vipers"... even Jesus with the tantrum in the temple courts and public accusations of theft.  Most of the prophets were ignored, many of them killed, and nearly all of them considered offensive.

    But, by and large, I think the difference is that these prophets spent most of their time declaring their message to their own people.  The analogy would be of pro-life activists preaching predominantly in churches, NOT the streets.  There are very few instances where public announcements of condemnation and rebuke are made to non-Israelites and non-believers; the harshest words are always saved for God's own people.  (In fact, you can argue that Jonah's prophecy of doom was probably not done in the way God had intended but rather out of spite for the Ninevites; he was certainly disappointed when God didn't destroy them!)

    So no, I don't think abrasive ministry is appropriate for people outside the church.  Not say that we water down or palliate the truth, but that we are more careful when we speak it.  This is, I think, exactly what Jesus was referring to when talking about pearls before swine..
  • little_potato@xanga

    How do you expect a discussion to go on if you have already given the answer you are expecting?
  • k_stin@xanga

    With this particular subject, I think the current method discussed is probably fairly hurtful for many women--whether they had abortions or not.  I can understand wanting to get people's attention about something, but there might be a more loving way to go about it.
  • CanadianBroad@xanga

    I think any type of fanaticism is destructive and dangerous in the long run. Taking that kind of illustration to a public event is like an anti-smoking crusader taking pictures of cancerous lungs to a "family-friendly" event. Your kids don't need to see that kind of thing, and they don't need to see aborted fetuses either. Think about it like this: If you wouldn't let them watch a movie that explicit, why would you accept it because it is from an evangelical group? Or, suppose I was violently opposed to drinking and driving - would you be happy if your child had gone to this event and I was there waving gruesome autopsy photos of drunk-driving victims? Would you think that was appropriate behaviour?


    Things like this do not lead to discussions of christianity, they lead to vehement confrontations. This kind of public behaviour is not appropriate in my eyes. A calm "we are opposed to abortion, and this pamphlet tells you why" (with no disgusting pictures, thanks) is waaaaay more fitting. It also lends more credibility to your group if you discuss it calmly and rationally, rather than screaming and yelling and waving pictures of aborted fetuses about.


    Just my thoughts on the matter. 
  • captain_jaq@xanga

    I think it's also worth noting that not all abortions are done for the sake of teenage mothers being sluts or simply "not wanting" a baby. Of course, some of them are. But what about those that are done because the mother's life is at stake? What about if the baby has died in the womb and the mother does not want to go through a stillbirth? What if some medical emergency happens with the mother and she is given drugs which cause fetal development to go grossly wrong? Say that mother has another child and she wants the best for her existing child and that doesn't involve having a vegetable-baby? What if she's very sick and the baby is leeching all sustenance from her? Say she has cancer. Progressed cancer and she's in early pregnancy so waiting for treatment isn't a feasible option. Either she will grow very sick and die or she will terminate her pregnancy and be able to be a loving mother to any existing and future children. Which sounds like the better thing in your opinion?

    There's a million different circumstances and no two are alike. You can't lump all abortions into one category of baby-murder. It isn't like that in the real world and the Evangelistic-emotion trumps actual thought and logical process to actually be heard.
  • KechiNeko244@xanga

    @captain_jaq@xanga - Well, removing a baby that's already dead isn't the same as your run-of-the-mill abortion. No pro-lifer would expect a mother to carry a child that isn't alive, not to mention that it would cause serious health risks. Also, I know a lot of people bring up the "what-if-the-mother's-life-is-at-stake" argument, but this sort of thing isn't as common as people think. And when it does happen, well, I don't have the answer. It's really hard to weigh one life against another. Do we say that the mother has had her chance at life and the child should live to carry on as a part of her? Or do we say that the mother still has so much life ahead of her, and she can always adopt or have another baby someday? The truth is, it's not for us to decide. How could we possibly?


    But I am of the belief that just because the child has a chance to be born with mental illness or physical disability, that's no reason to abort. You never can predict how things will go. Say a doctor tells you that your unborn child will be mentally retarded and will never be able to live by itself. Do you abort? But what if you carry the child, and he grows up happy and healthy and makes progress. He may aways need help, but he makes great strides. Modern medicine and mental and physical therapy get more advanced every day. Who knows? The child may one day, with the right amount of love, help, and support, be able to function on his own.
  • FlightsOfFancy@xanga

    @ captain_jaq


    thank you much.  i like finding level-headed people out there.  gives me faith in the world.
  • captain_jaq@xanga

    @KechiNeko244@xanga - I realized that soon after I posted and decided not to edit. Sorry.

    I know it's not common, but this sort of extremist thinking completely eliminates that possibility.

    It's fairly easy for me but I see how it isn't. If there is a mother who has children, or a husband, she has already established her life. Her children NEED their mother. They have priority over what has not become a reality yet (the baby in her uterus). So saving your child, while perhaps noble, isn't fair to yourself, your children, your husband...and the child that you are saving. That child will never know it's mother which is another issue in itself. I think a mother has to decide for herself in each situation, but if it came to that for me...I don't think I'd have to think twice.

    I did not mean disability per se. I don't believe in aborting a fetus because it will have downs-syndrome or something. Again, it's the mother's choice and hers alone, but I think that's kind of...I'm not a Christian so I don't want to say playing God...but it is. It's dangerous because in the future when we have more genetic testing, people may abort their gay babies and female babies and babies with green eyes. It would kind of create...less genetic variation, would be dangerous to us as a species and create an environment with stringent values of what is right and wrong with no room for opinion.

    I meant more along the lines of, the fetus has developed without a full brain and will not be able to walk, talk, and will always need to be on life-support. That's not a life; that's sustained agony both for the child and your family.
  • captain_jaq@xanga

    @FlightsOfFancy@xanga - You're welcome. I like to find level-thinking people as well...it makes me believe that maybe we aren't all doomed.
  • Vladimirov@xanga

    Dude - aborted babies on a cruise ship? WTF? I am pro abortion (under certain conditions) and even if I had been anti, I'd find this way out of line. A cruise ship is not a good place for any heavy topic. That's why people are going on them in the first place - to get away from those issues. I noticed some people agree that this is going to drive people away from seeing the 'big' picture. I'm an agnostic, and I hate how some athiests will just go on about how obsurd Christianity is (or any god(s) based belief), and this is just like the cherry on top. Those people did the wrong thing, and God himself would be disappointed. They did not get the whole picture and value the individuals onboard. There could've been kids there asking all sorts of questions. I think these people really did push their views on everyone, not to mention gross people out - and that's disrespect no matter how you slice it!


    Those people are FUNDAMENTALISTS, and fundamentalists in ANY religion is bad; it gives people the wrong impression that everyone's a strict, by-the-book believer, and permits people already hating your religion to sicken you even more with how much they think it sucks.


    There were these two athiests in my "Religions of the World" class, and they couldn't stop saying how Christianity sucked, and how can anyone believe this or that, yada, yada, yada...it made me so sick, I wanted to punch one of them in the mouth. I didn't, since then I'd get in trouble, and it'd turn into one big thing...my BP must've risen every time I had that class. I consider myself more on the Christian/Agnostic side of the Athiest-Agnostic-Christian scale. I say, if I had to choose between a reincarnated life, or a God and going to heaven after death, I'd choose the latter, since I think you'd be pretty tired after having so many lives.
  • metal_core1@xanga

    I don't know about the people who are using the Biblical examples of people sharing the Gospel or some kind of news to say that there may be some reason in a method so abrasive. I'm thinking of examples like Jonah and the Book of Acts, where either news the heeded doom or redemptive grace was preached to the masses by getting people's attention. As beneficial as those were, they were done in faith of God's will and were on totally different subjects.


    I've never seen abortion as a "strictly Christian" topic. Christians and non-Christians alike believe murder to be wrong and are against most situations of abortion (cause rape and the life of the mother are still hot subjects). But this isn't spreading the Word like David did in Acts, over warning a sinful city of God's wrath as Jonah had done. However, if the pickiters found a way to get their massage across and share the Word at the same time, that would be great and I'm sure there's a way to do so.


    There is a time and place for everything, showing gruesome pictures to someone who's trying to relax is not "apt" by any means. Personally, I think it would be more impactful to simply have pictures of live childern instead of dead fetuses; to make the point that these "things" actually turn into people and aren't to be thrown away. I don't see a problem with doing something like that on a street corner, those "truth" anti-tobacco people looked like they made a point; just don't do it at a place where it's going to discourage people.
  • KechiNeko244@xanga

    @captain_jaq@xanga - Well, I definitely can totally understand your point of view. I'm pro-life myself, but you bring up questions that I struggle with. Excellent points.

  • xapatotheworld

    I am anti-abortion.  I believe that it is a sin to kill a baby before it is born (not to even mention after it's born).  You can never tell, even with the best medical equipment, what a child or mother's life will be like after birth.  My mother was pregnant with me and due to a previous back injury, the doctors told her that she's be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life if she had me to term.  They were pushing for her to abort, but to her it wasn't an option.  She was scared, but she knew that God had given her this pregnancy for her good, whatever it was, and so she continued on.  When she had me, I was fine, and she was fine.  In fact, she never had to have back surgery until I was well into my 20's...just last summer.  Oh, and I also have two older sisters who were just entering the double-digits in age.  They could have been without a fully-functioning mother...but that didn't stop her.


    The whole things comes down to:  (I want you to hear this!)


    Do YOU trust GOD?  Do you trust that He knows the deepest, most intricate part of you?  Do you trust that He has your best in mind?  Do you trust that He knows exactly how to make you your best...because He made you?  Do you trust that life is not filled with coincidences, but God-determined plans?  Do you trust that even in difficult, even deadly, times, God cares for you and is going to preserve you?  Do you trust that God will NEVER give you more than you can handle?  Do you trust that if you seek to glorify God in EVERYTHING, that is all that matters?


    I'm asking this because abortion is essentially saying, "God, I know you made me.  I know you have my best in mind.  But this pregnancy isn't good timing, or, I'm really sick, or I don't think I can handle everything that "might" happen.  So, I'm going to take charge...help you out...and change my life's course.  Thanks for your input, but I think I've got a better plan."


    That's silly!  I know for me...it would be hard if faced with an unexpected pregnancy, or serious illness, or the possibility of a seriously sick child, to continue on with the pregnancy.  But I trust that God is going to take care of me.  I trust that He has my absolute best in mind and any other path is going to be second-rate.  I take that back...any other path is going to be 100th-rate.  We never know better than God.


    Now, I cannot force this opinion on others.  This is my belief, and while I believe it to be Truth and based on Scripture, I will not go around with signs of aborted babies hoping to "shock" people into realization.  That is ridiculous. 


    Galatians 5:22-23 says, "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, GENTLENESS, self-control; against such things there is no law."


    Ephesians 4:1-3 says, "I therefore, a prisoner (oooo, prisoner?  that can't be God's will for someone's life, right??) for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and GENTLENESS, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."


    I think it's easy to see that Jesus practiced, emulated, WAS gentleness.  We are all, as His followers, to strive to be His image-bearers...which means!!  we must live our lives with gentleness and peace.  The Bible says that they will know we are Christians by our love for each other (John 13:35).  Also check out these verses/passages:


    1 Corinthians 13:4-7; 16:14; Ephesians 4:15-16, 26-27; 1 Timothy 16:11.


    I'll also say (kudos to you if you make it this far in reading...I might go ahead and copy this and post on my blog :) ) that we cannot expect non-Christians to have the morality of the Bible.  Any morality that a non-Christian exhibits is just a mediocre copy of true morality, because morality cannot come without the Truth of Scipture.  Jesus is Truth, and without Him, any attempt of morality just becomes a vessel to feed our pride.


    Ok, now I think I'm done.  :)
  • edire@xanga

    Abortion is a blight of destruction and shame on the American landscape. The Woodward cruise is a symbol of American horsepower, polish, shine and beautiful women riding with muscled men in muscled cars. Why not inject something 'unbeautiful' into the event and pause for a moment for the dead babies who hopefully will not be completely forgotten? Certainly God has not forgotten them. Have the organizers of the Woodward cruise forgotten them? Anyone who believes this is not appropriate or 'PC' for a fun cruise event is right, and I ashamed of myself too for not crying and praying enough for the victims of 'legalized' abortion both living and dead. This is not so much a Christian issue, it is a human rights issue and a sign of the coming total collapse of moral living, except for those who find safety and peace in The Rock. Either The Rock falls on you or you fall on The Rock.

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