from
kechineko244 
I've seen all kinds of things popping up on Christian blogs about women and bikinis, and how Christian women should not wear them because "it would cause our brothers in Christ to stumble". I'm sorry, I am a Christian woman, and this is really bothering me. Why, do you ask? It is not because I oppose modesty, nor do I think girls should walk around with everything hanging out.
It's because this is just the old Adam cop-out. "It's the woman's fault I stumbled, God. It was her, not me. If she hadn't worn that, I would not have lusted." Hm, sounds very much like that scene in the Garden of Eden, does it not?
Men have a duty to look after their own heart. They must also understand that not all of us women are foul temptresses seeking to make them stumble. And how come it is always about the woman making that man stray? What about all those guys who work on their pecs and abs to impress the ladies? Those men are not told to cover up. Instead, their bodies are celebrated, and if the woman lusts or stumbles because of it, no blame is placed on the man. The woman was just sinful, that's all.
Am I the only one who thinks this is totally unfair? The Bible even says that woman is the glory of man. Eve was the very last thing God created. She was a perfect finish to a perfect creation. Then why is it that Christian, Jewish, and Muslim women are taught that they should be ashamed of their bodies and that their bodies are only tools of the devil, designed only to make man stumble? Why is celebrating our God-given beauty a sin? God would have made us detestable to look at if our bodies were meant to be so. But the woman was made to be pleasing to the eye. That is the way we were designed. And I'm not being prideful. There is a big difference between being prideful in your looks and just realizing that, as God's creation, you are beautiful.
I dress modestly. I like tank tops but they are always thick-strapped with acceptable necklines. I don't even wear shorts in the summer. I always wear jeans. But my body is not shaped like a bag of potatoes so I'm not going to wear frumpy dumpy lumpy clothes and cover my face and hair so my brothers won't stumble. If a man can't see a woman in a bathing suit or a woman showing just a little skin without "stumbling", then he is a man of very weak character, and he needs to take responsibility for that.
Guys, what standard of modesty do you expect from the girls around you? Girls, do you agree that the way guys present themselves can also cause us to stumble?
Comments (178)
I have issues with the photo being used. I feel it is mocking the Conservative Annabaptists (Amish/Mennonite) and having been raised in that background I find this picture to be a slap in the face to the women who wear bonnets/coverings. Real women who wear them look nothing like that.
I find the attitude of this blog rather inconsistent with what the Apostle Paul says in I Corinthians 8. Certain people were having difficulty eating meat that was sacrificed to idols, because of their pagan background, they had a guilty conscience. Paul makes it clear that it's completely fine to eat meat sacrificed to idols, because "we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one."
He goes on to say that although it's completely fine for people to eat meat, if it causes someone else problems, we need to be big enough to sacrifice our freedom in order to avoid causing someone else to stumble.
"But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak."
In no way does Paul say what you did, which was "then he is a man of very weak character, and he needs to take responsibility for that." He doesn't say "they need to just get over it, eating meat sacrificed to idols is acceptable."
Instead, he says "if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble."
I agree that men should not use this as a verse to blame women for their own sins, but as Christians we must be willing to give up our freedoms for the sake of others, if necessary.
I have no problems watching movies with a moderate amount of swear words, because I don't have a problem with swearing. However, if I was with another Christian who found that watching such movies caused him to swear more, I would not watch that movie with him. I surely would not say "that's your problem." If I had a friend who was a recovering alcoholic, I wouldn't have a beer in front of him and say "I can drink, you just need to get over it." We must treat our dress the same way. We have the liberty to dress how we want - but the attitude of "if it causes you problems, get over it" is surely not the attitude of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:9-10 KJV In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
How you dress reflects your heart. If a woman dresses in an immodest manner, it says something about her heart.
apparel – katastole – a lowering, letting down; a garment let down, dress, long flowing dress
Completely agree.
@Theophilus166@xanga - wonderful comment
The bible isn't really in favour of women.
I agree with @Kristenmomof3@xanga - I think we need to be careful to respect other brothers and sisters in the Lord and the choices they make.
But back to the post at hand.
The Christian walk is not just the walk of one individual. While we are certainly individuals in a relationship with Almighty God, we are also members of the Body of Christ.
I liken this to a family.
In our family, if one of my children does something to irritate their siblings they have a choice. They can chose to continue in their behavior because that is their right, or they can chose to put that sibling first. To honor that one above themselves.
They are usually not made to do it, but rather left to consider whether their own rights are more important than the love and unity of the family.
The consequences of being irratible are usually reaped at a later date. Maybe that sibling will be less inclined to want to spend time with them, or may in turn react meanly (and a whole other scenario enfolds).
But it is usually very telling as to the state of their heart.
It is love that motivates a woman to respect the men around her and dress modestly. Love, respect and care for her 'family' member.
Whether a man cares for his own heart or not is irrelevant. He will stand before God, for that. We will only stand before God for our own behavior and the choices that we make.
I think that this lies in both camps. Both guys and girls should do more to protect one another and themselves from stumbling. I agree that all the blame can't be placed on the women because the guy can't help being visually stimulated, but the girl shouldn't make his struggle that much harder because of low cropped shirts or shorts shorts or skirts. Vice versa, guys shouldnt parade around showing off rippling biceps or lifting their shirts to show carved abs. Although from what I've read and experienced, girls seem to be more emotionally driven instead of visually. Thus, guys shouldnt play with a woman's emotions just to get a girl to like him or whatever.
"Modesty" is completely fluid. Look at how women dress in Iran compared to how Christian women dress in the U.S. It ranges everywhere from being completely covered up to being fine wearing a tank top and a short-ish skirt. Granted, the way a lot of people dress in Western countries is a bit much for me (booty shorts? Guh). But there's a big difference between wearing hardly anything at all and wearing clothes that are flattering to your body type.
What one man may "stumble" over might not be a problem for another man. Some men "stumble" by more extreme dress codes. Goodness...a hundred years ago it was absolutely inappropriate to show your ankles. Fifty years ago it was absolutely inappropriate to show your legs above the knee.
Should we all just play it safe to please everyone?? Should all women just dress in burkas then??
>_<
You're right, guys have a responsibility to take care of their hearts
and do best to not commit adultery. BUT, we girls should still be
modest in the way we dress not just out of responsibility, but mainly
out of love. ("Let all that you do be done in love." -1 Corinthians 16:14) Most of the times
when girls dress immodestly, I think they do it with the intention of
looking "nice" rather than to actually stumble anyone... but by wisdom
we can conclude that sometimes, even good intentions reap bad results.
We should do everything in love -- everything, including the way we
dress.
@Theophilus166@xanga - Well said :)
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - Simply not true. By our standards, it isn't. But by the standards of the world at that time, the bible, especially the New Testament, was ahead of the times in terms of treating women with dignity.
@Theophilus166@xanga - So if it's outdated, why do people still follow it so vigorously? :] And just because that was the opinion of the day doesn't make my statement any less true in current context. It doesn't much like women.
I tried to post this earlier and the formatting stuffed up.
1 John 2
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in himto make him stumble. 11But
whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the
darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has
blinded him.
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - or is it that women don't much like the bible? Because God is certainly for women.
I agree with kechineko244.
While there are some women who basically are temptress, the majority of us aren't. Men are as provocative to women as women are to men. Saying that a woman should cover up when there are men walking around shirtless is an awful double standard.
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - It's not "outdated," but in some ways it reflected the culture of the time. People follow it because they don't believe it's just some history book, but it's the very words of God to humanity. They also follow it because it changes lives. I've found that the words I read in the bible challenge me to follow God more closely, and I know that God uses those words to compel me to be more like Jesus.
The bible is so forward thinking that it tells husbands to love their wives "as Christ loved the church." That implies that husbands are to give their lives up for their wives, if necessary. This is the highest form of love, one that our culture even today falls so far short of. Love is willing to give up everything it has for others. Our divorce rates, "me first" culture, and our willingness to get out of relationships because we're not 'happy' shows that we have a long way to go before we approach the level of love that is in the bible.
I think this argument is over-rated, and has become an issue of trying to stir up trouble rather than respecting one another out of love for Christ. Also, that picture is totally disrespectful.
I will say that I JUST had to deal with this situation the other day. I went swimming with this guy I'm dating and I wore a two piece swimsuit... MISTAKE. I really don't think he could concentrate on anything the whole time because of it. I could tell. He never blamed me for it, but I ended up apologizing for not watching out for him more in that area. They are just wired to where their brain physically struggles with that bad. It's really not fair to them to flaunt yourself because THEIR hormones go crazy and pretty much overpowers them and it's nearly impossible to get past it. So give them a break and help protect their eyes and thoughts... they are really trying to respect you as a person and not just an object to use... HELP THEM.
@Theophilus166@xanga - amen to that!
@Theophilus166@xanga - I see your point, but I must say I can't think of any situation where I'd willingly die and leave my significant other behind without me. Call me conceited but if I was them I couldn't imagine suddenly having to live life without that one person there. I (as myself again) would do everything in my power to make that one battle we didn't lose, I'd just keep fighting until I couldn't fight any more, and then I'd make sure they were safe. Er, well I guess I've just somewhat spun myself around to your way of thinking lol.
But as far as life-altering books, I could say that any book, written by man as the voice of God or not, could change a life. I know from personal experience just how big of an impact a simple book can be, and trust me this book was anything but holy. Speak is the name of the book, and let me tell you it has changed my life more than the bible ever has and ever will. But that doesn't mean I'm going to start basing my actions off it, I'm simply keeping in the back of my mind the changes it brought about in my life that were good, and I should refer to those memories in times of need, rather than the book. The book has already done for me all it can, and no matter how many ways I read it and interpret it, the words aren't going to change and I can only guess at what they mean. I'll never truly know, so why waste my time wondering about it when I can be out living the one awesome change it gave me?
@HeartOfPandora@xanga and @Theophilus166@xanga - Setting aside the argument of whether the Bible is "outdated" or not, from what I've read of the Bible, it seems very pro-women to me.
A) Matthew 1 - included within the patriarchal genealogy are the names of a few women, which is totally unique for patriarchal genealogies in general. The stories of these women are told in the Old Testament in detail - they are honored for their faith.
B) Mark 5:21-43 - Jesus repetitively interacted with women in a way which showed them respect. In this example, he raises a young girl from the dead and heals a woman who is an outcast of society.
C) John 20:11-18 - Jesus chooses to appear to a woman as the first person he encounters after coming back from the dead. He did not appear to one of the 12 disciples, but instead to a woman first.
Also of note, a handful of prostitutes and women of poor reputation traveled with Jesus - here was the first man in their lives to respect them and they realized he was worth spending time with.
So imo, the Bible is full of examples that validate, honor and respect women.
@Theophilus166@xanga - very well said
@D2L_Pastor - @onlyfr33b33@xanga - your two responses are far and away the best two I read. thankyou.
Phillip Yancy: "the truth lies at the extremes"
Truth be told though, I think this is a bad question. It's a minimalist question: "What is the most skin I can show without sinning?" It's akin to saying, "how far [in terms of a physical relationship] is too far."
As with all minimalist questions, there is no answer because not only does it vary person to person, but it varies day to day, hour to hour. It's not a matter of the actions, it's a matter of the heart behind the actions, and our emotional/spiritual states are fluid. Since the debate is about the actions, not the heart (i.e. the focus of the question doesn't address the problem at all) no one is ever going to come to even an acceptable comprimise, much less a conclusive answer.
So instead of throwing out Bible passages that will be refuted as "out of date" and arguing points that are based on convenience rather than morality (this is a hyperbole, I'm not saying bikinis are immoral. Rather, I'm saying they are amoral)....Girls, live your lives in a Godly manner, if you feel strongly that bikinis are wrong, then don't wear them. If a brother in Christ asks you not to (or lets his guard down and shows through his actions that your bikini is leading him to sin), then it's your moral obligation to stop wearing it around him (a future reference...not right at that moment....haha comedic relief? anyone?). Guys: respect women and learn to control your lustful thoughts. It's quite possibly the most difficult thing you will ever do, but try anyways. The "I can't help it. Boys will be boys" excuse is hogwash and we all know it. But the point isn't what clothes you wear; the point is your heart. Instead of debating what it means to "dress modestly," strive to live modestly.
Yes, I know I'm using vague words and concepts...that's the point. This isn't a cut-and-dry issue....in fact, very, very few things are that simple.
@KArTIEj@xanga - on behalf of men everywhere, I just want to say, "thank you for being so understanding and non-judgemental."
I could say a lot but it would be just echoing what most have already said. Like it or not, guys do stumble and I think it's just play wrong that women wear clothes to encourage that. Now where that line is is where most people argue and I won't attempt to argue that right. I care about my brothers in Christ and I would never want to do or wear something that would purposefully cause them to stumble.
@Kristenmomof3@xanga - I wholeheartedly agree in that I think the photo being used is mocking. I have many close friends who are mennonite and in beliefs I am too. (Just haven't joined a menno church yet.) I wear a head covering and the attitude that the women in the picture has is not one that we are supposed to have. It should be one of humility, submission and joyfulness. And yes you can be submissive and joyful at the same time!