Monday, 28 July 2008
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It is Not a Christian's Job to Prove God's Existence
by mrs violet
I've had a revelation. I am not sure if it is correct, so I thought I would open it up to others to see what they think. Maybe you have known this for quite a while and I am decidedly behind the 8 ball, but if it is true then it will revolutionize how I share the gospel. For years I have been hearing/reading conversations like this:
Non-Christian: "Prove to me that God is real."
Christian: "I don't need to, I know He is real. Prove to me that He is not!"The dispute, of course, ends up going in circles. So who does the burden of proof really rest with when it comes to proving the existence of God?
My new theory says that the burden of proof rests with God!
It's simple really. No longer will I make arguments, no longer will I present a 3 point sermon, equipped with a Power Point presentation and cheesy background music, and no longer will I learn diagrams or train myself in the art of verbal persuasion.
If you want to know if God is real, then you should ask Him. I've heard the old line, "You gotta believe in God to talk to Him, lady." I get that, truly I do, but what I'm saying is that you are either open to the fact there is a God, or you are not. If you are, then sincerely ask Him to reveal himself to you. If you are not, then stop expecting His people to wear the burden of proof that is not theirs to own.
God is not supposed to be argued or rationalized by Christians. He is supposed to be worshipped and glorified, enjoyed and relatable.
I will pray for you and with you, I will love you and I will bless you, and I will answer any questions that pertain to the Christian faith that are within my ability to answer. I pray though, that you have the revelation yourself from the Bible under the empowering of the Holy Spirit. I will share my testimony with you and be honest about my Christian walk, but I will not try to convince you that God is real.
If my theory is right, from this day on, I will no longer argue for the existence of God. My life should be a living testimony to that, and I want you to meet Him personally. God is big enough to argue his existence for himself.
Do you argue with people about God's existence? What have the outcomes of these discussions been like for you?
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Comments (119)
I believe there are good logical arguments that point to the existence of God, and it can be helpful to present them. However, it is never our job to make people believe. I do think that there are reasonable answers to some of the most common objections to God and Christianity, and sometimes those answers can make people think.
Our example can be more powerful thank spoken arguments.
Everyone is different. One person might be led to faith through my personal testimony; another person might prefer logical arguments.
I agree with you. I believe that our job in life is to just follow our faith and follow God in our own way, and never force our beliefs or opinions onto others. Usually when we try to argue FOR His existence, they will try to argue back for His non-existence. I have a good friend who does not believe in God, but she is still curious to ask about my faith, and I share with her what I know. I don't try to force her to believe in what I believe in. I think people should believe what they want to believe in, and once they begin to find their faith then we can help them strengthen it.
amen! let people be people and God be God.
You're on the right track, I think. However, I think you are also setting yourself up for the common anti-god argument, "I would believe in God if I saw Him do specific action X (which I believe is impossible.)"
The answer to this is that if God did X, it might prove that He exists, but if God didn't do X, all it proves is that a God who does things on our command doesn't exist. There is a lot of other evidence to consider, whether or not X ever happens.
"If my theory is right, from this day on, I will no longer argue for the
existence of God. My life should be a living testimony to that, and I
want you to meet Him personally. God is big enough to argue his
existence for himself."
Thanks. Seriously. I am so sick of some religious people getting in my face, demanding to know why I don't believe in god, and trying to prove that he / she / it / they exist. It's annoying, and it will not convince me of anything.
This argument has meant a lot in my walk as a Christian. As a Christian with many non-Christian friends, I have my religion questioned a lot. My friends have often asked for proof, and I get completely flustered as I start spurting up everything I can think of, which of course starts that circle you mentioned. This happens to me on more than one level, as I am also a vegetarian. My Christian friends will often ask me, "But don't you know that the Bible says eating meat is okay?" and then I feel as if I must prove myself, though it is more of a individual moral thing than a solid law, as is religion.
The biggest problem is that everyone needs to first accept that not everyone will believe in what you believe. Once you have a solid ground, you can have an open mind. And then, I believe you will be able to question things and be questioned without starting a battle.
God's existence cannot be either proven or disproven by anyone on earth... but that's the way it should be. The whole point of FAITH is believing in something that CAN'T be proven. If God's existence could be proven, then why would we need faith?
Bravo!!!! I feel that you have written a beautiful post
It is very well-rounded and I can feel the spirit rise up in me. I'm very excited for your new way of thinking and I look forward to hearing more about it. 
I have heard this....If someone can be argued into Christianity, they can be argued out of it! It's exactly as you say. Our lives should become living proof of God existing. Our testimony and love towards others should be testimony. Also the Word of God. I believe people, including myself, have forgot the power of God's word!
Great post!
The way I see it now that I think about it is this: convincing people to believe in God is like convincing people that certain lifestyles they live are wrong, what they say is wrong, and what they do is wrong. People are going to say what they want, do what they want, and even believe what they want to. Let's be real: you can't save everybody as much as you'd like to. All a person can do is be the best person he/she can, and not forget that there is such a thing as right and wrong, as well as the right to choose between the two.
Proof and disproof of G-d are both completely impossible for humans, at least based on the common understanding of "proof." The only ways that something can be proven, according to Western understanding, are scientific experimentation or mathematical/logical proof. In order to prove G-d from a mathematical standpoint, one must first establish some sort of relationship- If miracles occur, then G-d exists. G-d exists if-and-only-if Christ rose from the dead, etc, etc. Once we have established the grounds for His existence, we must go about proving those grounds.
Either way, the debate ultimately must leave the realm of logic and continue on to science, where there is no way to test supernatural things, since science is, quite literally, the study of natural things. The word Science comes from the latin word meaning "to see," and the entire framework of science is built around that which can be seen. So science chooses to remain mute on the subject, and without it, G-d must then be moved on to philosophy.
Upon arriving in philosophy, an impasse is guaranteed. The person who says He does not exist will have an entire worldview based on this belief, while the one who says He does will have built everything s/he knows about the natural world to include that belief. Each one is able to completely explain all that they know about life without having to leave their own ontological spheres.
Many of the "proofs" for G-d are rather ridiculous. The most famous is that of Descartes, who surmised that existence was impossible without G-d, which eventually led to his famous "I think, therefore I am" statement. The claim actually continued to say that because Descartes "was," G-d "Is." This claim is easily refuted by saying existence doesn't rely on G-d. I sat through an apologetics class, and one week was devoted to discussion of the various "proofs." The problem with each of them is that they claim that some certain thing is impossible without G-d, and because that thing exists/happened/is possible, G-d must exist. An atheist can respond to each simply by saying "That's not impossible apart from G-d," and believe he is absolutely right.
We can't prove His existence, and based on His constant calls for faith, I'd imagine He doesn't want us to.
I believe you are right. Our job isn't to go out and prove God exists, but to go out and live our life the way Jesus says to. That alone might lead ppl to Him.
I have found, however, that there is a lot of evidence to show God does exists. The only problem with "preaching" it to ppl is, no matter how scientific or whatever it is, they might not listen. They've already harden their hearts. It's better, I think, to show by the way you live that you're a Christian then to try and lecture their ears off. They might just need to know someone cares, not that God exists, and I know because of such and such.
Good post, btw.
I think that as Christians we are called to defend the faith in which we profess. I think that Jesus, before His ministry began, stumped the Pharisees in the temple courts with what He had to say.
I believe that as a Christian, I am called to love my brother from my heart, and not to stumble him in anyway (in speech or in action). Yet, I believe that as a man, I cannot let someone trample on my Savior through disrespectful words and incorrect thinking. As a man with a younger sister, I am prone to defend my God with what I know to be true of Him.
Of course, I agree with what you said, especially in the last part: to have your life be your testimony, because surely actions speak louder than words. But that does not mean that words always fall on deaf ears. Some people, whether they know it or not (because not everyone has a sign on their forehead saying: I am willing (or not) to accept the idea of God and His gospel truth) may be closer to understanding and accepting the gospel more than we might assume.
As with all things, I hope this does not stumble you. However, I exhort you, brother/sister to continue to cling to what is true, and keep your character consistent, to keep your eyes on the prize and let that inspire curiosity and intrigue in our beloved Savior on that bittersweet tree He created.
Very true. A good and down to earth reminder that it is not human logic or arguments that convinces people but rather it is by the revelation by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 3:2-6). I agree that it should be our lives that speak the loudest testimony for Christ. Words and logic only serve to make people defensive and unreceptive to the message that we carry (unless they're genuinely seeking and trying to understand).
Although I can say that God's beauty, majesty, and power are displayed in the totality of creation. But then, that's more of my own observation and declaration to my fellow Christians.
Oh, by the way, would you call Apologists arguers?
Like Ravi Zacharias (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yg2VXB-V8c0)
or Tim Keller (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ)
because I think they glorify God pretty well.
do you think paul had to prove God's existence? Or did he do his thing, follow God's lead, and when God said speak, he spoke, and when God said heal, he healed?
Our issue is really that we think we have to do this on our own, as if God said, "Save people" and left us. But He didn't. If we would go to Him for everything and listen for Him to speak and let Him guide us into every detail of our lives, from "do I buy a new car" to "ask her why she said that" then it opens the door for Him to act and do things that we don't see in this day and age anymore.
Good Job DF! & Finally "we" are de evolving. LOL Kris
My new theory says that the burden of proof rests with God!
But what I'm saying is that you are either open to the fact there is a
God, or you are not. If you are, then sincerely ask Him to reveal
himself to you.
The problem I've encountered is that many atheists claim to have been open and have asked God to reveal himself to them, but they say he hasn't. Their conclusion therefore to them is that God does not exist. A Christian's conclusion is that they weren't sincerely willing to admit that they've sinned against God and willing to repent of their sins and willing to commit their lives to God. They would rather enjoy the pleasures of sin and their own will than to trust God. God knows this is truly in their heart and he does not reveal himself to them other than what he reveals about himself in his creation.
I absolutely agree with you. I have stopped arguing with people who don't think that God is real and it's not because I don't want them to go to heaven, it's because I think that they don't really want to learn if they want me to sit down and argue it .. and really, I would rather have a convo as to why I believe than to prove something that you don't want to believe in in the first place.
@Pickwick12@xanga - I am sure there are people who ask because they want to know ... however, I think the issue comes when they ask but don't want to know.
I agree.
I agree, God doesn't want us arguing and trying to convince and ultimately shoving Him down other people's throat. He wants our lives to be the living testimony of who He is, and how great He is.
Very well put!
Atheists have long been defeated in their argumentation that God doesn't exist- first by the ancient Greeks and ever since by Christians and Jews and Muslims. The same arguments keep coming up- just spun with new jargon and new publicity- and each time Christians knock them flat. Richard Dawkins recently took on a Creationist here in the States and lost big time and he's one of many modern atheists who despise debating Christians in public forum because they hate losing to them all the time. In fact- the best debate teams in the nation are Liberty and Patrick Henry - both Christian schools well known for equipping Christians for public service- they regularly take on the Ivy Leagues and most prestigious schools both here and abroad and solidly defeat their opponents nearly every time. Hmm, maybe there's something more solid to our faith than blind belief after all... In the end- it's logically impossible to declare an absolute negative unless you're an infinitely intelligent being- and the only one that can do that is... GOD.
Whether most Christians engage in debate is not the issue- we are indeed called to "earnestly contend for the faith"- ladies and gentlemen, that is what we call apologetics- which means not to apologize but to give a defense. It can be done in a polite and loving manner (as it should be) and there is nothing wrong with taking on the points of criticism that non-believers lob at us. If you think about it- the NT writers were performing an apologetic to their readers- especially the four Gospels. In every city that Paul entered to preach the Gospel- his first stop was to the local synagogue to contend with the Jews. NT precedence alone shows us we ARE to argue for the faith.
While we can never make anyone believe- that is not our goal- we know that it is Christ alone who reveals himself to the unbeliever by grace. We ARE still accountable to share the Gospel and defend its truth to all the world- God in fact has chosen the foolishness of preaching to declare his Gospel and to cause his elect to believe after all the Word states quite plainly, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Also, learning to defend our faith is good for our growth spiritually. When we take on the challenge of tough arguments that test our faith and search out the answer and are able to come out of it on top we get stronger in our faith- it's not just blind acceptance but tested and tried trust.
Furthermore, sometimes the objections non-believers lob at us are legitimate and deserve answering. For example, many of you may have heard of Bart Ehrman's best-sellers that attack the legitimacy of Scripture such as "Misquoting Jesus." While Ehrman's conclusions are wrong they are drawn from studying the Greek manuscripts of the NT. One of his favorite points to bring out is that there are more errors in the NT manuscripts than there are words in the entire NT. Taken alone without qualification this is quite a troubling fact. But what he's NOT telling the reader (relying on most readers to be uninformed, everyday folk who don't know NT Greek) is that those errors are mostly variations in spellings of words and don't even come into play when translating into a different language. Simple enough- but most people don't know that. If we just stand aside and fail to repsond to attacks like these, they become circulated to the masses and accepted as fact without investigation and it puts a stumbling block in the way for people to come to faith. It is our duty as Christians to stand up against the onslaught of lies- if anything to help make believing easier for the skeptic.
IF there is a god, he refuses to prove beyond doubt his existence. And surely if you believe in the god of the Bible, then you must accept that he has, by nearly all scientific accounts, "planted" evidence to the contrary, for there are countless supplies of evidence in contradiction to the fanciful stories of the bible.
Rather, the argument I more often hear is that god doesn't wish to give evidence because he wants commitments based on faith. And, of course, to atheists, this intentional denial of rationality and logic is unacceptable.
Also, as a side note, the burden of evidence would never rely on scientists to disprove the existence of god. For one, science doesn't deal with god, because he claims himself to be outside the natural laws and order of things. Secondly, claiming that his existence cannot be disproved does not mean that his existence is about as likely as his nonexistence. There are thousands of gods whose existence cannot be disproved (because, as I mentioned, they claim to be outside the realm of science, and as such, can't be proved or disproved by it), and millions more can be invented, such as the Invisible Spaghetti Monster, who also cannot be disproved.
All of this is to say, simply, that if your "testimony" relies on any level on physical, scientific proof of the existence of god, it is fundamentally flawed. Instead, your point that your life must be a very personal proof of him is much easier to swallow, and much more likely to be successful.
my sincerest apologies, but i'm going to have to disagree completely. i think you're way off on this one.
any Christian will agree that it's our job to spread the gospel, the good news, that Jesus is God. and obviously, you can't do that unless there is a God. so in order to reach audiences that aren't convinced of God's existence, yes, in order to fulfill our mission of spreading the word as we are commanded to do in the Bible, we must convince these people that Jesus is God and therefore that God exists. sharing testimonies and personal experiences can be effective, but when it comes right down to it, some people just want cold hard facts.
as one such former atheist i can tell you this from experience. i heard countless personal testimonies and rationalized them all away, unwilling to believe unless there was any scientific evidence suggesting that i should consider it. when i finally found such evidence, that's what put me over the edge. that's what made me believe. i couldn't have cared less about personal testimonies, and if all you're doing to spread the word is telling about yourself while ignoring the scientific aspect of the argument, i hate to be so harsh, but you are failing to uphold your duty.
the evidence against darwinian evolution and for intelligent design is overwhelming. the evidence against the existence of life anywhere but earth is overwhelming. cosmological evidence. the fine-tuning of the laws of physics. the complexity of molecular mechanics. all overwhelming evidence for the existence of God. not to mention the empirical evidence pointing toward the resurrection of Jesus, such as the (once again) overwhelming historical reliability of the Gospels. this stuff is everywhere and it is not difficult to learn. go check out some books by lee strobel.. the case for Christ is what won me over.
let's face it. people who don't believe in God have no faith. they might be impressed or touched by your own personal experience, they might not. but the majority of intellectual atheists simply don't know that this scientific evidence exists, and they, like i, have to have the truth right in their face before they pay any attention to it.
without a shred of faith of their own, yours means nothing to them.